0:00:01.280,0:00:04.839 [Music] 0:00:04.839,0:00:08.599 We invite you to listen to episodes of the new podcast series "Polish Studies Newsletter's Meetings" 0:00:08.599,0:00:13.201 titled "Engaged Polish Studies." 0:00:13.201,0:00:17.268 Polish studies are not a helpless observation of the world. 0:00:17.268,0:00:19.647 They provide tools to navigate it, 0:00:19.647,0:00:21.267 to enable a greater understanding of it, and 0:00:21.267,0:00:26.008 to prevent exclusion and loneliness. 0:00:26.008,0:00:29.392 This is the Polish studies we want to showcase through our project: 0:00:29.392,0:00:34.560 "Engaged Polish Studies." 0:00:34.560,0:00:45.579 [Music] 0:00:49.000,0:00:53.000 Engaged maladic narratives, i.e., narratives about illness, and 0:00:53.000,0:00:57.879 literary studies strategies for analyzing and interpreting these narratives are the topics 0:00:57.879,0:01:03.039 of today's conversation. The pretext for 0:01:03.039,0:01:06.080 our conversation today is the publication of two issues 0:01:06.080,0:01:10.920 of "Ruch Literacki", which are devoted to stories about being ill. Today we are hosting 0:01:10.920,0:01:16.080 the editors of one of these issues, titled "Illness as Narrative," 0:01:16.080,0:01:21.880 theories and interpretations. Iwona Boruszkowska holds a PhD 0:01:21.880,0:01:26.920 in humanities and is a researcher of cultural representations of illness. She is a literary 0:01:26.920,0:01:31.840 and cultural studies scholar associated with the Department of Literary Theory at the Faculty of Polish Studies 0:01:31.840,0:01:36.600 at the Jagiellonian University. She also translates and studies 0:01:36.600,0:01:42.200 Ukrainian literature. She is the author of many different texts on the 0:01:42.200,0:01:47.079 maladic narrative, including a frequently cited monograph "Signature of illness. 0:01:47.079,0:01:53.119 Defect Literature in Ukrainian Modernism." It is also worth mentioning that Iwona directs 0:01:53.119,0:01:58.640 the Center for Research on the Cultural Discourse of Illness, a center operating at 0:01:58.640,0:02:03.159 the Faculty of Polish Studies. Hello, good morning. Hello, Maria Świątkowska is 0:02:03.159,0:02:07.000 also with us today. A doctoral student at the Jagiellonian University's Doctoral School of 0:02:07.000,0:02:10.679 Humanities, who is preparing 0:02:10.679,0:02:17.640 a doctoral dissertation on autopatographies in Polish literature, Maria 0:02:17.640,0:02:23.879 is also a translator. She has translated the book "Narrative Medicine" 0:02:23.879,0:02:28.959 and is also a member of the Center for Research on Cultural Discourse, Diseases. Hello, 0:02:28.959,0:02:33.239 Maria, what unites us, what 0:02:33.239,0:02:37.400 unites you above all, is this literary ground, these 0:02:37.400,0:02:43.480 professional interests related to literary studies. I would like 0:02:43.480,0:02:49.400 to start by asking you about how contemporary literary studies approach 0:02:49.400,0:02:53.920 maladic narratives, narratives that describe very difficult personal 0:02:53.920,0:02:58.920 experiences related to illness and loss of health, first and foremost. 0:02:58.920,0:03:03.799 It's probably worth noting that in literary studies there is no single 0:03:03.799,0:03:09.560 dominant perspective, and the maladic studies themselves and the reading of such 0:03:09.560,0:03:13.879 maladic narratives, narratives that talk about the experience of illness, about diagnosis, about 0:03:13.879,0:03:19.959 therapeutic processes, they evoke or evoke 0:03:19.959,0:03:25.319 various interpretative analytical approaches. 0:03:25.319,0:03:28.640 A characteristic feature also emphasized by many different researchers 0:03:28.640,0:03:34.159 of maladic discourse is something called polyphony 0:03:37.680,0:03:43.799 of various philosophies, schools of interpretation, and so on, but there are certain elements that 0:03:43.799,0:03:47.920 dominate. In such a reading, which also draws attention to the delicacy and 0:03:47.920,0:03:53.239 sensitivity of the matter that is described here, presented primarily, 0:03:53.239,0:04:00.560 dominates. This approach probably values ​​something that could be defined as phenomenology, 0:04:00.560,0:04:05.439 I mean, it's about this experience, the textualized experience and 0:04:05.439,0:04:09.360 the embodiment of this experience. Because the symptoms of the disease, manifested bodily 0:04:09.360,0:04:15.439 and then in some way embodied in the text, they probably also simply 0:04:15.439,0:04:19.160 evoke this phenomenological approach, which is very 0:04:19.160,0:04:22.560 interesting. There is also, of course, an affective perspective related to this, 0:04:22.560,0:04:29.240 a whole matrix of affects is created here, generated by maladic narratives, 0:04:29.240,0:04:34.240 and registered by them, and also, as it were, evoke it again in the recipient when reading the maladic narrative. 0:04:34.240,0:04:38.759 Whether it is a completely personal, individual reading or a reading that 0:04:38.759,0:04:44.560 we can call professional, it makes no difference. I think it's worth mentioning 0:04:44.560,0:04:50.960 another source: bioethics, which is perhaps less 0:04:52.680,0:04:55.600 literary in terms of recalling in the context of 0:04:55.600,0:05:04.759 maladic discourse, but definitely is necessary when it come to maladic discourse. Issues related to ethics in medicine, related to this 0:05:04.759,0:05:10.520 problem of decision-making in illness, and so on, are also 0:05:10.520,0:05:14.240 taken into account here. But above all, first of all above all, maladic narratives 0:05:14.240,0:05:19.319 require such a very attentive, patient, empathetic openness 0:05:19.319,0:05:22.720 of reading that will not be limited to any specific 0:05:22.720,0:05:26.280 methodological approaches. In my opinion, this is probably the most 0:05:26.280,0:05:29.720 characteristic thing about maladic discourse. 0:05:29.720,0:05:34.160 When it comes to maladic discourse, in this polyphony Iwona talked about there would also be a perspective 0:05:34.160,0:05:39.960 of narrative medicine, right? Yes, definitely. I think that 0:05:39.960,0:05:43.840 narrative medicine is more of a 0:05:43.840,0:05:50.520 pedagogical practice that is connected with reading practice, which is also close to 0:05:50.520,0:05:54.960 the humanities, and of course, literary studies. 0:05:54.960,0:06:00.680 Its founder, Rita Charon, combines 0:06:00.680,0:06:06.039 both medical and humanities education, being a doctor and 0:06:06.039,0:06:11.720 a literary scholar. Narrative medicine, on the other hand, is 0:06:11.720,0:06:18.720 a way of educating doctors, one could say, which includes 0:06:18.720,0:06:24.199 elements of the broadly understood humanities, because these are elements 0:06:24.199,0:06:30.960 of literary studies, but also other fields. In the course of this 0:06:30.960,0:06:37.639 education, a competence close to reading competence is to be developed, related to 0:06:37.639,0:06:42.120 it, but used in contact with patients and in reading, 0:06:42.120,0:06:45.000 interpreting, and 0:06:45.080,0:06:50.960 decoding. Narrative medicine is connected to what 0:06:50.960,0:06:55.840 Iwona talked about, but also refers to 0:06:55.840,0:07:03.280 medical practice and the doctor-patient relationship. In this relationship, the story 0:07:03.280,0:07:07.560 is, of course, also very important, and in the maladic discourse there is also 0:07:07.560,0:07:13.680 such a reflection that encompasses relationships. In the issue that was edited, 0:07:13.680,0:07:18.759 this issue of relationality is present - it is impossible to say 0:07:18.759,0:07:24.319 about the ethical attitude towards the maladic relation when these relations are 0:07:24.319,0:07:30.080 not thought about or spoken about. If I remember correctly, this is the thread from the text, 0:07:30.080,0:07:36.560 the truth about this relationality, that is, about a perspective that takes into account in 0:07:36.560,0:07:42.240 this reading process, which is so complex. How can the process be 0:07:42.240,0:07:46.520 so complex? How can the process of writing a narrative be so complex? 0:07:46.520,0:07:52.720 Not only the subjective perspective is important, not only the narrative, but also 0:07:52.720,0:07:57.680 how this narrative is received and interpreted. In other 0:07:57.680,0:08:03.599 words, is the recipient of the narrative, the reader, important for this process? 0:08:03.599,0:08:06.639 Yes, this is actually the thread I touched on in my text that opens 0:08:06.639,0:08:10.560 this issue, "Writing in a State of Emergency and Reading as a Remedial Action." 0:08:10.560,0:08:15.840 Especially the second part of the title here, I think it resonates with what you're talking about. 0:08:15.840,0:08:21.400 Because it seems to me that to a large extent, 0:08:21.400,0:08:29.759 Polish research on this textualization of illness focused on, what is 0:08:29.759,0:08:36.200 obvious and necessary, of course, also on the text as a testimony of the private 0:08:36.200,0:08:41.120 experience of experiencing this illness, recording of 0:08:41.120,0:08:49.000 symptoms, and so on. However, I think that less attention was paid to the fact 0:08:49.000,0:08:54.920 that maladic texts are a specific tissue of literature in which there is an 0:08:54.920,0:08:59.880 encounter - not only encounters between the writer and the reader, or 0:08:59.880,0:09:04.000 the experience and the recipient of this experience, or the description of the experience 0:09:04.000,0:09:08.760 or the experience of illness itself and surviving. And it is precisely this process 0:09:08.760,0:09:14.800 of writing, which is also largely, and is often emphasized, 0:09:15.000,0:09:20.480 self-therapeutic. It is necessary to pay attention to or slightly shift the focus on what 0:09:20.480,0:09:26.120 is much closer to me, both as a researcher and simply as a reader of these texts, 0:09:26.120,0:09:31.200 recently. This is precisely the experience of reading 0:09:31.200,0:09:37.040 what this experience of illness does to me when I am able 0:09:37.040,0:09:43.200 to read a given text. What happens within some of my reflections, also or 0:09:43.200,0:09:49.480 my body, at the moment when this reading takes place. I am putting forward this 0:09:49.480,0:09:53.680 thesis here. Besides, it is not my own thesis. It also appears in 0:09:53.680,0:09:59.399 many different studies on narrative pathography. 0:09:59.399,0:10:06.279 This reading does not go unnotices, that it can also have, just like 0:10:06.279,0:10:08.600 writing, 0:10:09.399,0:10:13.720 self-therapeutic dimension. 0:10:13.720,0:10:17.279 So here we are 0:10:17.279,0:10:22.680 dealing with such an encounter, or with some kind of distribution 0:10:22.680,0:10:26.680 of a certain kind of experience or the fragility of this experience on many 0:10:26.680,0:10:31.440 levels between the text, the author, and the recipient. 0:10:31.440,0:10:36.519 Moreover, it is quite interesting from the perspective of maladic 0:10:36.519,0:10:41.639 research. How can we shift this focus and open up the 0:10:41.639,0:10:45.720 maladic research, whether from a literary or cultural perspective, to something else? 0:10:45.720,0:10:51.959 And for you, Maria, what strategies for interpreting the 0:10:51.959,0:10:56.040 maladic narratives are closest? What 0:10:56.040,0:11:04.440 Iwona mentioned is certainly close to me, and I, when reading maladic texts, 0:11:04.519,0:11:11.760 often want to focus on those aspects that indicate the potential, 0:11:11.760,0:11:18.760 precisely the creative and emancipatory community of these texts, because very often this 0:11:18.760,0:11:26.560 center of gravity is somewhere else, that is, rather, this research attention 0:11:26.560,0:11:33.040 is focused on the description and the difficult experience, often 0:11:33.040,0:11:39.720 experienced individually, and on its somewhat idiosyncratic nature, and 0:11:39.720,0:11:45.519 this is of course justified and important, but it seems to me that there is a very 0:11:45.519,0:11:52.519 great potential in perceiving this emancipatory energy, which 0:11:52.519,0:11:59.800 is very strongly felt in these texts. This was somehow imposed on me in reading 0:11:59.800,0:12:05.600 the text that I interpret in the article published in this issue of 0:12:05.600,0:12:09.959 "Ruch Literacki", i.e. in the text of Małgorzata Baranowska, because it is actually such 0:12:09.959,0:12:14.160 a manifestation of agency in illness. While reading, 0:12:14.160,0:12:19.079 I could not help but feel that this is about something other than just 0:12:19.079,0:12:23.240 a story about suffering, that it is about a story about how 0:12:23.240,0:12:28.600 to live a good life in illness, how to appreciate the experience 0:12:28.600,0:12:32.920 of illness, especially and this is especially crucial in such 0:12:32.920,0:12:38.800 existential situations in which this illness is an irreversible condition that will not be removed. 0:12:38.800,0:12:44.839 It will not be a biographical episode that will just end and life will go 0:12:44.839,0:12:48.839 on - rather situations where this illness 0:12:48.839,0:12:54.600 constantly accompanies the subject and Here, the 0:12:54.600,0:12:59.279 philosophical perspectives presented in Havi Carel's texts, for example, the question of 0:12:59.279,0:13:04.480 "good life in illness," are very close to me, and it 0:13:04.480,0:13:07.959 is also connected to the political 0:13:07.959,0:13:11.920 potential of these maladic narratives, because they are 0:13:11.920,0:13:17.880 often downright extraordinary. There is often this 0:13:17.880,0:13:24.920 desire to use one's story to act on some kind of change. 0:13:24.920,0:13:29.279 Here, of course, an association comes to mind with 0:13:29.279,0:13:34.079 a model text in this maladic canon, 0:13:34.079,0:13:39.440 i.e., "The Cancer Journals" by Audre Lorde who wrote so that this suffering would not 0:13:39.440,0:13:44.160 be in vain. But I think this is a slogan, a mantra that 0:13:44.160,0:13:50.160 resonates in many stories about very different types of suffering. 0:13:50.160,0:13:55.480 I use the word suffering intentionally because often this topic of autopathography 0:13:55.519,0:13:59.920 is not necessarily strictly a 0:13:59.920,0:14:02.720 medical condition, because it could be, for example, accompanying 0:14:02.720,0:14:07.639 a person in illness, it could be an experience 0:14:07.639,0:14:13.360 bordering on illness, such as alcoholism. Are there various other 0:14:13.360,0:14:19.759 experiences of this kind that are either related to this suffering or are 0:14:19.759,0:14:25.360 some kind of pathology, and presenting and talking about them is connected 0:14:25.360,0:14:30.120 with this emancipatory potential, which 0:14:30.120,0:14:34.959 I would like to pay special attention to. 0:14:34.959,0:14:38.399 The perspective you presented in the text that now 0:14:38.399,0:14:44.600 I found very interesting because it allows for a change in thinking about the subject of 0:14:44.600,0:14:50.320 the maladic narrative, a slight departure from this thinking about this 0:14:50.320,0:14:56.160 subject as a castaway, as a 0:14:56.160,0:15:01.199 defective subject, and a shift towards thinking about 0:15:01.199,0:15:04.680 the subject of the maladic narrative and the writing subject 0:15:04.680,0:15:10.560 as an agent of truth, capable of emancipatory action. 0:15:10.560,0:15:17.480 Yes, and also using their situation for advocacy, but 0:15:17.480,0:15:22.639 not just to talk about their own suffering - because I think 0:15:22.639,0:15:27.480 this is a very common way of presenting these narratives - but 0:15:27.480,0:15:32.680 after all, especially the latest 0:15:38.079,0:15:44.639 autopatographic narratives very often show precisely this striving for 0:15:44.639,0:15:49.880 community. This brings to mind a text that I've been thinking a lot about lately, because 0:15:49.880,0:15:55.000 I've also written a bit about it, namely "Mireczek" by Aleksandra Zbroja, but this is 0:15:55.000,0:16:00.440 only one of many examples of such texts, because even if in 0:16:00.440,0:16:06.120 the text itself there are no such literal references to community, as is the case, for 0:16:06.120,0:16:11.839 example, in the text by Zbroja, they often appear at the end of the book in 0:16:11.839,0:16:17.959 the afterword... I mean, very often, even if these 0:16:17.959,0:16:23.920 signals of communities do not appear in the narrative itself, for example, at the end 0:16:23.920,0:16:30.120 of the book there are mentioned institutions or entities to which one can 0:16:30.120,0:16:35.600 turn when experiencing similar health crises or 0:16:35.600,0:16:44.040 situations that are described, and this is a clear signal of this, 0:16:44.040,0:16:48.120 at least for me in this reading, of this community's potential that is 0:16:48.120,0:16:52.440 in this book and which resonates somewhere in it, even if 0:16:52.440,0:16:56.639 it seems that this is a description of a very individual 0:16:56.639,0:16:59.360 experience lived in isolation. 0:16:59.360,0:17:04.160 So we could say that the maladic narrative also takes into account this 0:17:04.160,0:17:08.760 collective entity, the collective we? Definitely yes. Even if we are 0:17:08.760,0:17:14.039 dealing with what Arthur Frank calls a collection of diaries, a collection 0:17:14.039,0:17:18.319 of stories by wounded narrators, i.e., large individual first- 0:17:18.319,0:17:22.240 person narratives about one's own experience, 0:17:22.240,0:17:27.360 the entire collection creates a kind of network, a collection, meaning that something is created that could be 0:17:27.360,0:17:32.640 called a community of wounded narrators with the multitude of voices of these different 0:17:32.640,0:17:37.360 stories, on the other hand, what Maria talked about is 0:17:37.360,0:17:43.440 some kind of various activities related to, or arising from, or 0:17:43.440,0:17:48.679 caused by this encounter with the experience of illness, which establish 0:17:48.679,0:17:53.240 different communities, whether it is a community of the sick, or a community 0:17:53.240,0:17:56.880 of the suffering, or a community of the silent, or those who narrate, or 0:17:56.880,0:18:00.320 a community of those who witness someone else's 0:18:00.320,0:18:04.960 suffering, or a community of researchers or readers, recipients, 0:18:04.960,0:18:09.280 so here definitely this community's creative potential is very 0:18:09.280,0:18:15.400 important and characteristic, probably also for these maladic elements 0:18:15.400,0:18:21.960 of discourse. How this formation of a community and various 0:18:21.960,0:18:28.400 kinds of such performative elements that this community produces and in which it 0:18:28.400,0:18:34.120 also participates can bring a real change, for example, by 0:18:34.120,0:18:39.360 revealing various irregularities in the functioning of the healthcare system, 0:18:39.360,0:18:44.760 stigmatizing various practices that are simply harmful and do not bring relief, 0:18:44.760,0:18:48.400 or other elements related to this systemic 0:18:48.400,0:18:53.200 nature of medicine or medicalization in general as a oppressive practice. 0:18:53.200,0:18:59.280 So, if we 0:18:59.280,0:19:03.720 reveal, indicate, describe these elements through melodic narratives, it will be the first step to 0:19:03.720,0:19:08.120 change something, to use and process this affective potential that is largely connected in these 0:19:08.120,0:19:12.400 maladic narratives with the affect of anger to a real 0:19:12.400,0:19:16.679 change in the socio-political situation. 0:19:16.679,0:19:21.919 Arthur Frank has already appeared several times in our conversation. Maybe not several times, at least once, 0:19:21.919,0:19:29.400 and this year marks 30 years since the publication of his 0:19:29.400,0:19:32.080 classic book for maladic studies, "The Wounded Storyteller" 0:19:33.440,0:19:39.919 and I would like to ask you whether this theory has become outdated or whether 0:19:39.919,0:19:46.720 maladic narratives have somehow verified these theories? Yes, definitely. 30 years, three 0:19:46.720,0:19:51.280 decades, is definitely enough time to 0:19:51.280,0:19:55.280 verify, maybe 0:19:58.760,0:20:05.159 also invalidate certain approaches to narrative as such, and it is known that 0:20:05.159,0:20:10.520 narratology and literary theory, which discusses what narrative is, how it 0:20:10.520,0:20:14.280 changes, how it influences 0:20:14.280,0:20:20.280 socio-political reality, have undergone far-reaching changes over recent decades, 0:20:20.280,0:20:25.760 so if we were to really use it in this 0:20:25.760,0:20:31.200 form, perhaps Frank found himself in an issue of the literary movement, these 0:20:31.200,0:20:35.840 considerations of his, first of all, come to mind. Definitely, some 0:20:35.840,0:20:42.960 kind of polemic with his theses comes to mind. However, these Frank's findings still somehow 0:20:42.960,0:20:48.080 organize this field of maladic narratives, a certain type of narratives, 0:20:48.080,0:20:51.200 more classic ones. Specifically, first-person 0:20:51.200,0:20:58.320 narratives focused on experience, thus autopathographies. 0:20:59.480,0:21:05.679 However, at this point, when we are already dealing with completely different ways 0:21:05.679,0:21:10.480 of reflection, not only maladic narratives, but simply all cultural texts 0:21:10.480,0:21:15.520 that somehow process the experience of illness, the image of illness, 0:21:15.520,0:21:20.080 or the figure of illness, create some kind of cultural image of it, then Frank's theory 0:21:20.080,0:21:22.840 seems insufficient. His 0:21:22.840,0:21:27.880 proposed division into three types, or three kinds of maladic narratives, is also 0:21:27.880,0:21:33.480 obviously insufficient. Besides, 0:21:33.480,0:21:40.919 Frank's approach excludes non-narrative stories about illness. 0:21:40.919,0:21:46.480 Frank's main thesis 0:21:46.480,0:21:53.240 is that the experience of illness 0:21:53.240,0:21:59.880 demands and requires expression. But it doesn't have to be like that, and also from psychological and 0:21:59.880,0:22:04.480 various other points of view, it is being developed or has been developed in 0:22:04.480,0:22:09.799 recent years. So, Frank has such a very specific thesis focused on 0:22:09.799,0:22:15.799 the use narrative and he builds his diagnoses around it. But 0:22:15.799,0:22:20.360 as you said, his book, "The Wounded Narrator," belongs to the canon 0:22:20.360,0:22:25.720 of literature examining pathography, i.e., disease writing. And it would 0:22:25.720,0:22:31.000 be worthwhile for Polish readers and researchers to also be able to 0:22:31.000,0:22:35.919 familiarize themselves with Arthur Frank's works, perhaps in translation, which is also important. There are many such interpretations of Frank's theory, both 0:22:35.919,0:22:40.640 polemical and recently published in Polish, 0:22:40.640,0:22:44.720 including Angela 0:22:44.720,0:22:49.720 Woods. She is precisely the one who demands from Arthur Frank this 0:22:49.720,0:22:54.080 appreciation of silence about illness, appreciation of some of the cracks 0:22:54.080,0:22:58.799 and crevices that Frank omitted because, according to him, they are not an element of coherent deliberation. 0:22:58.799,0:23:02.080 And narrative coherence is not, in my opinion and in the opinion of many other 0:23:02.080,0:23:07.760 researchers and critics of Arthur Frank, such a necessary point to talk about 0:23:07.760,0:23:14.240 illness. So, Angela is definitely a good example 0:23:14.240,0:23:18.480 of such a critical analysis of Frank's diagnoses 0:23:18.480,0:23:25.520 as a representative of such a critical turn in medical humanities, but also 0:23:25.520,0:23:31.080 definitely, what you have already said here, namely how much 0:23:31.080,0:23:37.159 importance Frank attaches to narrative understood as a coherent story, as 0:23:37.159,0:23:43.200 a certain structure. It has become outdated, although 0:23:43.200,0:23:50.000 there are also interesting attempts to somehow save it. This may be an exaggeration, 0:23:50.000,0:23:54.120 because I don't think there's a need to "save" Frank, because it is a canonical text, but 0:23:54.120,0:23:59.440 there are attempts at a reading that seems more, let's say, benevolent. 0:23:59.440,0:24:05.520 Some of the values ​​in this text are worth reading. And here, an interesting 0:24:05.520,0:24:11.840 example is the book "Illness as Many Narratives" by Stella Bolaki, where she tries to expand 0:24:11.840,0:24:16.880 the definitions of narrative so that these analyses, among other things, 0:24:16.880,0:24:21.360 start from Frank's analyses, recognizing these critical readings, but still 0:24:21.360,0:24:26.279 seeing some value in them. I would say that perhaps this is 0:24:26.279,0:24:31.039 the biggest problem. Because that's why 0:24:31.039,0:24:36.919 it would be good for Polish readers to get to know this book in its entirety, because usually 0:24:36.919,0:24:42.360 they probably know it from quotations in various texts. And you know how it is with 0:24:42.360,0:24:47.640 quotations, we usually focus simply on the most resonant 0:24:47.640,0:24:52.159 or often repeated theses by other researchers, and in this 0:24:52.159,0:24:56.000 book there are many analyses that are defendable, therefore I 0:24:56.000,0:25:01.760 fully subscribe to the postulate that this book should 0:25:01.760,0:25:06.840 also be relevant for Polish readers. But it seems to me that what 0:25:06.840,0:25:13.320 is most problematic in these analyses is underestimation 0:25:13.320,0:25:20.039 of what Arthur Frank calls chaos narratives, because these 0:25:20.039,0:25:26.600 incoherent, fractured stories are often very 0:25:26.600,0:25:31.640 interesting from the point of view of formal literary studies, as well as from the point of view of such formal literary studies. They often 0:25:31.640,0:25:37.520 constitute a more adequate image of the experience 0:25:37.520,0:25:43.080 of illness, as it is experienced, which cannot be forced into the framework of such a coherent story 0:25:43.080,0:25:49.520 as this quest narrative, which he considered to be the model and 0:25:49.520,0:25:53.399 in fact the only truly emancipatory 0:25:53.399,0:25:58.600 example of this narrative. Meanwhile, if we look at how, 0:25:58.600,0:26:03.120 at least from my point of view, the most interesting examples of maladic narratives 0:26:03.120,0:26:08.919 look like, they often bear the hallmarks of these chaos narratives, which does 0:26:08.919,0:26:14.360 not seem to diminish their emancipatory potential at all. 0:26:14.360,0:26:19.880 What made you decide to translate 0:26:19.880,0:26:23.640 this third chapter of Frank's book? 0:26:23.640,0:26:30.120 It concerned narrative as a challenge to storytelling. In this chapter, Frank, 0:26:30.120,0:26:36.399 recalling the entire psychoanalytic background, explains the foundations of his theory, 0:26:36.399,0:26:42.360 that is, he links narrative with subjectivity, and this experience 0:26:42.360,0:26:50.480 of illness is for him, as we can see from his various observations and conversations, 0:26:50.480,0:26:54.520 from his own experience and also from conversations with patients, 0:26:54.520,0:27:01.120 eperience of illness is an element that destabilizes, 0:27:01.120,0:27:08.200 changes, disrupts the previously continuous (if 0:27:08.200,0:27:11.520 we can argue about any continuity here) 0:27:11.520,0:27:16.919 identity and subjectivity of a person. 0:27:16.919,0:27:21.880 Therefore, this experience of illness also 0:27:21.880,0:27:27.159 requires ordering it and getting rid of this chaos using 0:27:27.159,0:27:32.520 a structured narrative. The story also has its own composition, 0:27:32.520,0:27:37.600 its structure, it is guided by some genre determinants or other 0:27:37.600,0:27:41.679 elements related to how to conduct a narrative, it has its beginning, 0:27:41.679,0:27:46.080 its end, and so on. Everything can be in order, of course, it doesn't have to be, but that's how 0:27:46.080,0:27:52.159 it's postulated here, and this storytelling activity is also supposed to be such 0:27:52.159,0:27:56.080 an activity, perhaps not even therapeutic (although to some extent, of course, also), 0:27:56.080,0:28:00.679 more of a unifying activity, which unites these disturbed, discontinuous, defective 0:28:00.679,0:28:08.360 subjectivity at this moment of experiencing the illness. 0:28:08.360,0:28:13.919 The goal, as in many such proposals, 0:28:13.919,0:28:19.720 is to return to the pre-illness state, to cure the symptoms, to get rid of 0:28:19.720,0:28:24.720 the illness, and this is also what this narrative is supposed to serve, this story, which is parallel to 0:28:24.720,0:28:29.120 the treatment process and which, in some more symbolic or 0:28:29.120,0:28:34.519 linguistic order, also performs such a therapeutic gesture. I think 0:28:34.519,0:28:40.039 it's also interesting from a literary studies point of view because it says a lot about 0:28:40.039,0:28:48.360 how we can connect the narrative, the text, the story, i.e., such typically 0:28:48.360,0:28:52.559 literary figures, with this experience of illness. In this text, 0:28:52.559,0:28:58.600 the metaphor of the map also appears, that is, an attempt to connect thinking about 0:28:58.600,0:29:04.159 maladic narrative with thinking in terms of map, or mapping, moving around 0:29:04.159,0:29:08.200 on a map. This is not Frank's original 0:29:08.200,0:29:15.039 metaphor, it is evoked after Zaruches, if I'm not mistaken, and in this 0:29:15.039,0:29:19.080 approach it is about searching for some kind of landmark and 0:29:19.080,0:29:23.880 marking the way. Well, the map is also a powerful 0:29:23.880,0:29:28.840 metaphor and figure, evoked 0:29:28.880,0:29:32.640 in cultural or literary studies, of course, and I think it is simply 0:29:32.640,0:29:37.919 attractive. When it comes to illustrating certain 0:29:37.919,0:29:42.320 elements here, it fits well with the types or kinds of patographic narratives introduced by Frank, 0:29:42.320,0:29:46.200 especially this narrative of searching. 0:29:46.200,0:29:51.640 Besides, not only Arthur Frank uses this metaphor related to travel, map, 0:29:51.640,0:29:57.240 searching, finding, castaways, and so on. Other maladic researchers, both 0:29:57.240,0:30:01.440 male and female, writing about patography and about this 0:30:01.440,0:30:06.919 textual subject of patography, use these metaphors. 0:30:06.919,0:30:12.760 I would also like to ask you whether your thinking about the 0:30:12.760,0:30:17.919 maladic discourse has changed after the edited issue, in which we can find a 0:30:17.919,0:30:23.960 lot of different texts about the maladic narrative? This is a powerful 0:30:23.960,0:30:30.760 question. Yes, both of these issues of "Ruch Literacki" collecting texts 0:30:30.760,0:30:36.200 about maladic issues are the result of our conference about illness writing, 0:30:36.200,0:30:42.120 it was quite a big event, and both during this three-day 0:30:42.120,0:30:47.039 conference and in these two extensive issues 0:30:47.039,0:30:53.360 of "Ruch Literacki", we had the opportunity to encounter various research perspectives with 0:30:53.360,0:30:58.600 different types or approaches to reading 0:30:58.600,0:31:02.240 narratives, but also simply other cultural texts. 0:31:02.240,0:31:06.880 There was a lot of 0:31:06.880,0:31:10.679 discussion about the clash of different perspectives and different approaches. It was 0:31:10.679,0:31:16.480 definitely creative, so it was a broadening of perspectives, and I think that 0:31:16.480,0:31:20.200 these two issues are a good summary of what has happened in the 0:31:20.200,0:31:24.200 maladic discourse in terms of Polish literary studies or Polish humanities 0:31:24.200,0:31:28.639 in recent years. Especially since in this issue we have 0:31:28.639,0:31:32.639 texts by researchers such as Monika Ładoń, Małgorzata Okupnik, and Hanna 0:31:32.639,0:31:38.320 Serkowska, researchers who devoted their entire monographs to 0:31:38.320,0:31:43.960 maladic studies on literature, primarily Polish, so it was also a very 0:31:43.960,0:31:48.039 interesting experience to hear their presentations and read their texts. 0:31:48.039,0:31:53.639 So, these different research perspectives are definitely of great value, such as these 0:31:53.639,0:31:58.039 conferences and publications. Besides, these various and 0:31:58.039,0:32:02.840 diverse elements, the element that connects most of these texts 0:32:02.840,0:32:08.240 is some kind of conclusion regarding that there is a need 0:32:08.240,0:32:12.960 for discussion at a time when, after the global experience 0:32:12.960,0:32:19.320 of the pandemic, these concepts of health and disease are completely re-evaluated. 0:32:28.120,0:32:34.080 There needs to be a discussion about how cultural texts depict this experience. Second, something that Frank might not like: the existence of discontinuous narratives, and not only narratives understood as 0:32:34.080,0:32:39.240 literary texts, but simply narratives in a broader sense, fragmentary 0:32:39.240,0:32:45.080 or some that will silence various different elements of this experience or 0:32:45.080,0:32:49.840 whose affective potential is too great to be able to talk about any 0:32:49.840,0:32:54.159 coherence and so on, and so on. So, such texts that are appearing more and more frequently 0:32:54.159,0:33:01.360 in this field of maladic texts also attracted the attention of researchers. 0:33:01.360,0:33:04.919 And the need for such an interdisciplinary and possibly 0:33:04.919,0:33:08.760 open, broad approach, not being limited only to, for 0:33:08.760,0:33:12.200 example, literary tools for studying maladic discourse, was 0:33:12.200,0:33:17.639 definitely something that emerged here during the conference itself and 0:33:17.639,0:33:24.000 the work on these issues. Yes, I think that this experience, both 0:33:24.000,0:33:29.559 the conference and the editorial, perfectly summarized for me. It also provided 0:33:29.559,0:33:35.039 an opportunity to learn about many interesting and inspiring perspectives 0:33:35.039,0:33:41.639 on these issues. I can say that a particularly 0:33:41.639,0:33:47.039 inspiring speech and later text for me was 0:33:47.039,0:33:51.639 Monika Ładoń's text "Exhaustion. On the condition of the protagonists of the maladic narratives", 0:33:51.639,0:33:58.279 also referring to Baranowska's book and presenting such 0:33:58.279,0:34:05.399 an analysis of this condition of this 0:34:05.399,0:34:10.679 very exhaustion, chronic fatigue. Very inspiring insights, 0:34:10.679,0:34:16.240 but this is one of many texts from different perspectives, so 0:34:16.240,0:34:22.480 it was definitely such an experience that broadened 0:34:22.480,0:34:27.440 horizons. And of course we also encourage you to to familiarize yourself with these 0:34:27.440,0:34:32.679 in our issue, this is probably a good time to extend an 0:34:32.679,0:34:35.800 invitation. So, before 0:34:35.800,0:34:39.599 the conference, I'll just say that all issues and all 0:34:39.599,0:34:44.320 open-access texts of "Ruch Literacki" are posted in 0:34:44.320,0:34:48.159 the repository of scientific journals of PAN, so you can 0:34:48.159,0:34:55.000 easily read, download, familiarize yourself with each of the texts of the "Disease as a narrative" there. 0:34:55.000,0:35:00.240 So I encourage you. We can now invite you to the next conference organized by 0:35:00.240,0:35:03.680 the Center for Research on Cultural Discourse of Diseases 0:35:03.680,0:35:08.960 on May 22, 2025, in Krakow at 0:35:08.960,0:35:12.160 the Faculty of Polish Studies of the Jagiellonian University. We will organize 0:35:12.160,0:35:15.920 a conference on the body, theory, text, and somatics of cultural narratives 0:35:15.920,0:35:20.680 of disease. This time we will focus on the somatic aspect 0:35:20.680,0:35:25.480 of the experience of disease, this somaticity also as a determinant of 0:35:25.480,0:35:30.680 patographic and autopatographic narratives is highlighted by many researchers. So, 0:35:30.680,0:35:34.119 we will devote the next conference to this issue. You can 0:35:34.119,0:35:38.079 still register for it until February 28th. We will probably extend 0:35:38.079,0:35:43.800 the registration period. We invite you. We talked a lot about 0:35:43.800,0:35:48.400 the literary perspective, a more theoretical one. Finally, 0:35:48.400,0:35:56.400 I suggest moving closer to literature, and I have a question about your own 0:35:56.400,0:36:01.359 maladic lectures, i.e. such texts, whic you 0:36:01.359,0:36:08.480 consider groundbreaking or that are personally important to you. For me, a very important 0:36:08.480,0:36:13.720 and inspiring read was the already mentioned book by 0:36:13.720,0:36:20.200 Aleksandra Zbroja "Mireczek. A Pathostory of my father". It is a narrative 0:36:20.200,0:36:26.160 that combines many issues that are interesting to me in maladic discourse, 0:36:26.160,0:36:32.119 meaning it is a story in which 0:36:32.119,0:36:38.760 relationality is very resonant. In fact, the entire book is about relationships, also 0:36:38.760,0:36:42.960 this element of emancipatory 0:36:42.960,0:36:48.680 potential comes to mind. Bringing to 0:36:48.680,0:36:53.200 light experiences that are difficult to 0:36:53.200,0:36:58.800 describe socially, but are common. For me, it was a very 0:36:58.800,0:37:03.920 inspiring read, but also an interesting one in formal terms. An attempt 0:37:03.920,0:37:10.000 to tell an experience and precisely from the point of view of establishing a community, which is very 0:37:10.000,0:37:16.640 difficult, I will use the term introduced by Iwona Krucha, 0:37:16.640,0:37:24.359 extremely important and so poignant. Another autopatographical text, 0:37:24.359,0:37:30.200 which seems extremely important to me (besides, this is of course not only my 0:37:30.200,0:37:35.800 opinion) from recent years, is Mateusz Pakuła's book "How I Didn't Kill My 0:37:35.800,0:37:41.800 Father, and How Much I Regret It". Here, too, the potential for some social agency 0:37:41.800,0:37:48.319 of starting a discussion or bringing certain topics into the 0:37:48.319,0:37:54.119 public debate - all of this applies to this 0:37:54.119,0:37:59.440 story. This is how I would say that both of these stories 0:38:09.280,0:38:13.400 can be classified. If you have already read them, I recommend going back because I have read them many times and 0:38:13.400,0:38:20.480 each time I find interesting elements in them anew. This is 0:38:20.480,0:38:27.560 the experience of reading such narratives focused on the disease. 0:38:27.560,0:38:32.520 It's very demanding, I wouldn't be able to point out or choose (although I'll do 0:38:32.520,0:38:40.800 it) a few, even one book or story in general, 0:38:40.800,0:38:45.680 but for various reasons (which I won't go into here now because I'm writing 0:38:45.680,0:38:52.280 books about it, so maybe there's no need for that) for me as 0:38:52.280,0:38:58.319 a reader, there's a surplus resulting from this reading experience (which is very large, difficult, 0:38:58.319,0:39:04.800 demanding, but also very rewarding in this contact with 0:39:04.800,0:39:08.640 maladic texts). I basically read all texts that are about 0:39:08.640,0:39:12.960 illness and which are not theoretically about illness, but then it turns out that 0:39:12.960,0:39:18.640 they are also about it. Similarly, I watch all medical and maladic series and movies, 0:39:18.640,0:39:23.880 also even genre-wise - cancerographies and other. 0:39:27.520,0:39:32.319 And privately, as a reader and researcher, I'm interested in something that isn't prose narrative in the literary studies sense, 0:39:32.319,0:39:38.960 but what in a very concise metaphorical way 0:39:38.960,0:39:43.359 contains this experience of illness - above all, 0:39:43.359,0:39:49.040 I mean Polish poetry of the 20th century, also of the second 0:39:49.040,0:39:53.880 half of the 20th century, in which this experience of illness is often 0:39:53.880,0:39:58.640 juxtaposed parallel to other major experiences. 0:39:58.640,0:40:06.200 For example, the poetry of Tkaczyszyn Dycki or Aleksander Wat recently interests me more than fictional or 0:40:06.200,0:40:10.520 non-fictional narrative stories. 0:40:10.520,0:40:17.190 Thank you very much for the conversation. Thank you. 0:40:17.190,0:40:20.389 [Music] 0:40:21.560,0:40:27.440 The podcast series "Engaged Polish Studies" was produced as part of the project 0:40:27.920,0:40:32.240 "Polish Studies and the Challenges of the Modern World." Funded from the state budget 0:40:32.240,0:40:36.560 under the Minister of Education and Science's program "Science for Society II." 0:40:36.560,0:40:41.520 The project number is provided in the description. We invite you to listen 0:40:41.520,0:40:47.079 to subsequent episodes available on Spreaker, Spotify, and YouTube platforms, and 0:40:47.079,0:40:52.640 in the online Polish Studies Bulletin. 0:40:56.240,0:41:00.280 See you soon!