0:00:00.719,0:00:05.560 I was in Krakow, Sandomierz, Chojnice. They pulled the rail. 0:00:05.560,0:00:09.840 I ran away naked with the girls. They won't see the glasses spilled by the eye 0:00:09.840,0:00:15.839 , how the bed swallows them. I stand facing the messy mounds. I catch 0:00:15.839,0:00:24.359 my fingers under the covers as I touch the bandages. [Music] 0:00:24.359,0:00:28.359 We invite you to listen to episodes of the new podcast series "Meetings of 0:00:28.359,0:00:35.239 the Polish Studies Newsletter," titled "Engaged Polish Studies." Polish studies aren't a helpless 0:00:35.239,0:00:40.399 observation of the world. They provide tools to navigate it, 0:00:40.399,0:00:47.320 help understand it, prevent exclusion and loneliness. 0:00:47.399,0:00:52.640 This is the Polish studies we want to showcase through our project: 0:00:52.640,0:00:56.800 Engaged Polish Studies. 0:00:56.850,0:01:07.949 [Music] 0:01:08.479,0:01:12.880 Disability and Engagement. Under this guiding principle, we are creating a series of 0:01:12.880,0:01:18.600 conversations with activists, writers, and researchers 0:01:18.600,0:01:23.479 involved in various ways with the topic of disability. 0:01:23.479,0:01:28.240 Welcome to the second episode in a series of conversations about disability and various dimensions 0:01:28.240,0:01:34.119 of engagement, a series that is part of a larger podcast series called 0:01:34.119,0:01:38.880 "Biuletynu" ("Meetings of the Bulletin"), created as part of a research project on the social 0:01:38.880,0:01:42.759 functions of contemporary humanities, including Polish studies. 0:01:42.759,0:01:47.680 The project is carried out by the Institute of Literary Research of the Polish Academy of Sciences 0:01:47.680,0:01:52.079 in Warsaw. My name is Magda Szarota, and today I'll be speaking with Dominika 0:01:52.079,0:01:58.240 Filipowicz, a poet, editor of the young literature magazine Trytytka, and 0:01:58.240,0:02:03.880 nominated in the 30th edition of the Jacek 0:02:03.880,0:02:09.319 Birezin National Poetry Competition. In October of this year, 0:02:09.319,0:02:14.720 Dominika is publishing her debut volume of poetry, "GAP," which touches on 0:02:14.720,0:02:19.519 the experience of disability, through the publishing house Wspólny Pokój. In her academic career, she works in 0:02:19.519,0:02:23.480 disability studies and suicidology. 0:02:23.480,0:02:28.080 As a person with a disability herself, she emphasizes that her involvement in 0:02:28.080,0:02:33.200 disability studies also has personal significance for her. 0:02:33.200,0:02:37.959 She is also a member of the informal group of women with disabilities 0:02:37.959,0:02:42.200 called Multifrenie. Hello, Dominika. 0:02:42.200,0:02:44.879 Good morning. Thank you very much for the invitation. 0:02:44.879,0:02:51.440 We're thrilled to be able to chat today on our podcast. 0:02:51.440,0:02:58.000 First, I'd like to ask about the intersections of various fields, 0:02:58.000,0:03:02.239 experiences, and motivations in your multifaceted 0:03:02.239,0:03:06.200 creative and activist work. Namely, as I mentioned in the introduction, 0:03:06.200,0:03:11.319 you work in poetry, but also in disability studies 0:03:11.319,0:03:15.080 , and as you openly speak and write about it, you're also a woman with 0:03:15.080,0:03:20.440 a disability. And your debut poetry project, GAP, 0:03:20.440,0:03:24.040 as you describe in your theoretical description, 0:03:24.040,0:03:28.640 aims, and I quote here, to present readers with the perspective 0:03:28.640,0:03:34.400 of a disabled subject. As you add elsewhere, however, I'm not creating 0:03:34.400,0:03:39.640 an identity-based project. Exactly. Considering all this, 0:03:39.640,0:03:43.599 how would you explain your creative motivation 0:03:43.599,0:03:48.799 to someone who doesn't normally work with poetry or 0:03:48.799,0:03:53.599 disability studies? What exactly is it all about, and why and for whom 0:03:53.599,0:03:58.720 might what you do be important? As for the poetic perspective, 0:03:58.720,0:04:04.280 it's very personal for me. In a sense, Polish poetry is currently 0:04:04.280,0:04:08.760 moving away from denominationalism, moving towards 0:04:08.760,0:04:12.000 more general writing that doesn't strictly address 0:04:12.000,0:04:15.840 individual experiences. However, in my poetry, I quite strongly touch on my own 0:04:15.840,0:04:19.600 individual experience—specifically, the experience of disability—and it 0:04:19.600,0:04:23.520 's quite important to me, in the sense that I transform it. I don't speak about it in 0:04:23.520,0:04:29.039 a one-to-one way, but it's very important to me 0:04:29.039,0:04:32.400 , it's under the bridge, and I'm trying to somehow 0:04:32.400,0:04:36.880 linguistically transform or change what 0:04:36.880,0:04:40.199 I've experienced during my life—medicalization or 0:04:40.199,0:04:46.160 infantilization, or that gaze—as if from an onlooker who perceives 0:04:46.160,0:04:50.840 me in a specific way. Honestly, 0:04:50.840,0:04:55.000 disability studies as an academic field is 0:04:55.000,0:05:01.720 quite difficult for me in writing, because when I read theoretical texts, they 0:05:01.720,0:05:05.120 start to influence my poetry to some extent, and paradoxically, that's not such a good thing 0:05:05.120,0:05:08.440 . So, for me, the more I participate academically, 0:05:08.440,0:05:11.720 the more difficult it is for me to write, and the more I participate poetically, the more difficult it is for me to write. 0:05:11.720,0:05:15.120 I'm less involved in academics because these two aspects, although 0:05:15.120,0:05:18.280 very similar, are perhaps a bit too close. The moment 0:05:18.280,0:05:23.880 this theory crosses over and begins to influence poetry, it becomes 0:05:23.880,0:05:26.880 a rather strange, strange mishmash. And suddenly I start noticing that 0:05:26.880,0:05:30.960 theoretical concepts I've read about appear in my poems. 0:05:30.960,0:05:36.560 It's just that, for me, it's very important to show this 0:05:36.560,0:05:41.280 individual perspective, but on the other hand, I don't want it to be an 0:05:41.280,0:05:45.560 identity project, because I feel that very often, 0:05:45.560,0:05:49.319 when people from marginalized groups write, they are perceived only through 0:05:49.319,0:05:55.319 their identities. Their writing is perceived as, well, closed to 0:05:55.319,0:06:00.800 some degree. For example, if someone writes from the perspective of a 0:06:00.800,0:06:04.039 queer person, their poetry is often perceived only through this 0:06:04.039,0:06:08.840 queer reading. Or, in my case, if I touch on the topic of disability in some way 0:06:08.840,0:06:12.039 , my poetry will be perceived only through that 0:06:12.039,0:06:15.319 single lens. I'd like to move away from this a bit, to show that 0:06:15.319,0:06:21.840 disability can be present in the content of a poem, in the content of the text, but 0:06:21.840,0:06:26.880 also in the very form of creating the text, that it's possible to make the text itself simply 0:06:26.880,0:06:32.800 depart from normative, uh, ways of writing. And we'll probably 0:06:32.800,0:06:35.840 talk more about this later. I don't want to dwell on this topic now, but 0:06:35.840,0:06:40.160 I'd really like my poetry to speak about individual 0:06:40.160,0:06:45.639 experience, but not in a completely direct way. To some extent, everyone could, 0:06:45.639,0:06:50.319 of course, perceive it differently, but also for the disability 0:06:50.319,0:06:55.759 to be an element that simply permeates the text from all sides, not just 0:06:55.759,0:07:00.560 from the content or the meaning. So, on the contrary, sometimes I try 0:07:00.560,0:07:05.440 to break down this meaning, and I don't know if it would be appropriate for someone unfamiliar 0:07:05.440,0:07:09.400 with poetry and disability, but that's 0:07:09.400,0:07:14.840 more or less mine, that's simply my idea, and if I were to say 0:07:14.840,0:07:18.879 who I address my texts to, my literary texts, or my 0:07:18.879,0:07:23.280 poetic texts, I feel I'm most 0:07:23.280,0:07:29.199 directly addressing them to people who write. In Poland, not many people write, even fewer 0:07:29.199,0:07:33.720 than write or read poetry, so it's actually a very limited group. 0:07:33.720,0:07:36.960 So, to some extent, I'm obviously reaching out to them, but 0:07:36.960,0:07:41.440 I also try to reach out to people with disabilities who 0:07:41.440,0:07:45.599 might want to start writing and would like 0:07:45.599,0:07:48.759 to be able to talk about their experiences from different perspectives, not just from 0:07:48.759,0:07:53.400 an identity perspective, but also from the perspective of integrating 0:07:53.400,0:07:57.639 their experiences. And I'd like to perhaps find a few people with 0:07:57.639,0:08:02.199 disabilities who would like to write, because there aren't many of them, if 0:08:02.199,0:08:05.759 they even have some degree of disability. I don't know many of them, so I'd just like 0:08:05.759,0:08:11.240 to show a little that this is a topic that doesn't have to be limited 0:08:11.240,0:08:14.639 to any one perspective. And that's very interesting what 0:08:14.639,0:08:19.360 you said, because on the one hand, you emphasize this aspect of an 0:08:19.360,0:08:24.240 individual, so in a sense, also at times, 0:08:24.240,0:08:29.039 probably a separate experience, and on the other hand, you emphasize the aspect 0:08:29.039,0:08:35.279 of networking with other poets and poets dealing with 0:08:35.279,0:08:40.519 disability issues. I'd like to return to the title 0:08:40.519,0:08:48.240 of this debut volume, because I have the impression that it 0:08:48.240,0:08:53.279 also focuses on the tension you mentioned—on the one hand, 0:08:53.279,0:08:58.560 trying to find one's own language to describe disability, and on 0:08:58.560,0:09:04.560 the other, a certain theoretical knowledge 0:09:04.560,0:09:07.920 of various issues in disability studies. So I have the impression 0:09:07.920,0:09:11.200 that this tension is somehow present in this title, if you could 0:09:11.200,0:09:15.720 tell us a little more about it. Of course, so the title is "gap and 0:09:15.720,0:09:21.320 gape," meaning staring, or a person staring. This refers to 0:09:21.320,0:09:24.839 the work of Garan Thompson, who has just written a very interesting book on 0:09:24.839,0:09:28.200 the analysis of the phenomenon of staring and the way people 0:09:28.200,0:09:33.800 with disabilities stretch their gaze. But the gap in my volume is also 0:09:33.800,0:09:37.839 a gap, a hole. So I want to show, on the one hand, the 0:09:37.839,0:09:42.079 perspective of the gaper, that is, the person looking from the outside, and also 0:09:42.079,0:09:45.920 The experiences of a subject with a disability, who 0:09:45.920,0:09:50.959 has these gaps, these furrows, these holes imposed by society 0:09:50.959,0:09:55.240 , which are also part and parcel of 0:09:55.240,0:09:58.880 the experience, and this is what is so important to me in this 0:09:58.880,0:10:03.640 volume—this duality, or rather, multi-tracking. I 0:10:03.640,0:10:07.480 also know that these texts are not pleasant. In a sense, they are not texts that 0:10:07.480,0:10:11.519 are easy or good to read, even from a content-based perspective. 0:10:11.519,0:10:15.920 They are not meant to disconcert the reader a little, 0:10:15.920,0:10:19.880 to make them feel a little uncomfortable, to make them a little confused about what's happening. 0:10:19.880,0:10:25.360 So, while reading, you simply had to take breaks sometimes, so that 0:10:25.360,0:10:29.240 the reading wouldn't be easy. And this is also partly connected to 0:10:29.240,0:10:35.120 this, to these gaps, to these holes that are meant to be revealed in these 0:10:35.120,0:10:41.120 texts. And this is also a bit of a leap forward, but these texts, which 0:10:41.120,0:10:44.720 is very important to me, are devoid of titles, because I want 0:10:44.720,0:10:51.600 to show that, when we see a poem, the poem consists of a title and 0:10:51.600,0:10:56.720 content. And I would like to show that this lack of a title can 0:10:56.720,0:11:01.200 also be creative, can create a new form. It is supposed to consist of 0:11:01.200,0:11:05.240 individual texts that create the form of a poem, as if 0:11:05.240,0:11:10.240 telling a story about a certain path, but also showing that it 0:11:10.240,0:11:13.040 all merges a bit, that the reader is somewhat confused about 0:11:13.040,0:11:16.920 where the next text begins and ends. So, in my opinion, this is a somewhat 0:11:16.920,0:11:20.440 close experience of disability, and I'm aware 0:11:20.440,0:11:24.680 that it's not such a great, theoretically 0:11:24.680,0:11:27.480 safe approach, in that it presents disability 0:11:27.480,0:11:31.720 strictly from a slightly uncomfortable, slightly difficult, 0:11:31.720,0:11:37.079 slightly unclear perspective, and it sometimes seems a bit 0:11:37.079,0:11:40.320 more controversial now. But I'd like to show that it doesn't have to be that way, that 0:11:40.320,0:11:46.639 this ambiguity, this element of peace, this element of this kind of 0:11:46.639,0:11:50.440 difficulty, is also very creative, and I want to show that I am 0:11:50.440,0:11:54.839 productive. Lack, lack, is as if inherent in disability to such a degree. 0:11:54.839,0:12:03.000 Could you give us an example of when a theory 0:12:03.000,0:12:06.600 from disability studies 0:12:06.639,0:12:10.720 suddenly hindered your creative process, and 0:12:10.720,0:12:16.839 why? Or perhaps there were moments when it was the other way around, when 0:12:16.839,0:12:21.680 it was helpful in some way, that is, knowledge of a theory or 0:12:21.680,0:12:25.920 paradigm. I must certainly admit that 0:12:25.920,0:12:30.120 Thomson's book "Gapienie się rozmie" (Gaping is Different) helped me a lot. It truly 0:12:30.120,0:12:34.160 had a significant influence on how I wrote. In 0:12:34.160,0:12:38.560 the sense that I really felt that what she said about staring, about 0:12:38.560,0:12:42.480 that gaze, but also about the medical gaze, about the medical gaze, and 0:12:42.480,0:12:46.760 about the gaze of the starer, which comes from curiosity, 0:12:46.760,0:12:51.800 found a place in my book. But when it comes to theories that 0:12:51.800,0:12:56.240 hindered me, or perhaps hindered me to some extent, I have the impression that they may not have hindered me 0:12:56.240,0:12:59.480 , but they did force me to think more. And 0:12:59.480,0:13:04.880 I would say that this is definitely a strong theory of narrative prosthesis. The theory 0:13:04.880,0:13:09.760 of narrative prosthesis, created by Sharon Sneider and David Mitchell, 0:13:09.760,0:13:13.560 concerns disability in literature, primarily in prose, and 0:13:13.560,0:13:16.160 how disability can be used in a 0:13:16.160,0:13:19.519 somewhat objective way, where the disability is meant to speak about something 0:13:19.519,0:13:22.920 else, to be, for example, a symbol of something else, or the disability is meant 0:13:22.920,0:13:26.839 to symbolize some difficulty that then disappears because, for 0:13:26.839,0:13:30.600 example, the hero is killed, or the hero is killed to some extent, or, for 0:13:30.600,0:13:35.639 example, the disability is ultimately cured, and if I'm 0:13:35.639,0:13:40.399 being honest, poetry is approached a bit differently, but I was afraid to some 0:13:40.399,0:13:44.880 extent whether I wasn't exploiting disability in some 0:13:44.880,0:13:49.920 way, maybe not objectively, but simply by 0:13:49.920,0:13:54.399 using it. I was a little afraid of that. I don't think so, because to some 0:13:54.399,0:13:57.040 extent I know I'm touching my own individual experience. So, each 0:13:57.040,0:14:01.399 individual experience is different, but I was a little afraid of that, because I felt that 0:14:01.399,0:14:04.759 I'm sort of using disability in terms of content, but 0:14:04.759,0:14:07.480 also in terms of language. I don't know if that's my intention, 0:14:07.480,0:14:15.680 and it's a bit of a different approach, so I wasn't sure about that. 0:14:15.680,0:14:18.680 In this book, I also allude quite a bit to the perception 0:14:18.680,0:14:22.399 of people with disabilities, specifically to this medicalization. There are 0:14:22.399,0:14:27.519 quite a few texts about the medical exfoliation 0:14:27.519,0:14:33.160 of people with disabilities. And there's also the motif 0:14:33.160,0:14:40.320 of infantilization, meaning the voice of a child and the voice of an old or 0:14:40.320,0:14:43.720 elderly person—these two characters who are to some extent 0:14:43.720,0:14:47.160 devoid of gender and sexuality, and who are also to some 0:14:47.160,0:14:49.959 extent identified with disability. So I know that 0:14:49.959,0:14:53.839 some of these motifs, stemming from my 0:14:53.839,0:14:58.600 experience and the essence of disability, can be found there. I also have 0:14:58.600,0:15:01.600 a specific experience of disability, because my 0:15:01.600,0:15:05.240 disability isn't very visible. It's like I'm quite 0:15:05.240,0:15:10.279 short, but it's not obvious. So the gaze I 0:15:10.279,0:15:14.000 encounter, or feel, is an uncertain gaze, because people 0:15:14.000,0:15:17.959 sense that something is amiss, but they don't know exactly what. So I have 0:15:17.959,0:15:21.120 the impression that I also wanted to begin with this, with these poems 0:15:21.120,0:15:25.680 , that this staring can also be staring with such a big 0:15:25.680,0:15:31.839 question. Mhm. I understand. m, meaning some kind of 0:15:31.839,0:15:38.839 evasion of norms. When I read your poems, I had the impression that 0:15:38.839,0:15:43.959 the issue of grappling with various norms and paradigms 0:15:43.959,0:15:50.800 is also, well, a building block of what you write; I have the impression that 0:15:50.800,0:15:57.360 somewhere underneath, I sense it so strongly. And this work in 0:15:57.360,0:16:02.519 and on the Polish language, as you've already mentioned, is also a kind of 0:16:02.519,0:16:07.880 determinant of your poetry. And with this in mind, I'd like to 0:16:07.880,0:16:13.199 ask you what experiences you wanted 0:16:13.199,0:16:18.720 to write about required the greatest linguistic deconstruction or 0:16:18.720,0:16:23.399 the search for other ways of expressing words? Were there any, I don't know, 0:16:23.399,0:16:28.079 linguistic traps? And em, which you wanted to avoid. em, and if so, 0:16:28.079,0:16:32.480 if you could give some specific examples from your poems in this 0:16:32.480,0:16:35.920 area, I must say that this may be 0:16:35.920,0:16:39.839 a bit of a contradiction, as I mentioned earlier, but for me, the most difficult thing 0:16:39.839,0:16:45.920 about writing was simply a certain personality, and I wanted 0:16:45.920,0:16:49.959 to move away from that to some extent—this is based on my experience—but 0:16:49.959,0:16:53.880 I would like to move away from denominationalism, such direct denominationalism. So 0:16:53.880,0:16:58.319 these texts are also quite cold, 0:16:58.319,0:17:04.760 devoid of, for example, impersonal forms, or 0:17:04.760,0:17:10.720 I often change the subject or object, meaning I simply change 0:17:10.720,0:17:17.640 the inflections, and when these texts are like that, the subject isn't really that 0:17:17.640,0:17:21.959 obvious or clear, and I really wanted to 0:17:21.959,0:17:25.480 show that, firstly, we have the cold side of medicalization, which often 0:17:25.480,0:17:30.160 deprives a person with a disability of the experience of being 0:17:30.160,0:17:35.160 a person at all. Secondly, it's concentrated in these impersonal endings and 0:17:35.160,0:17:38.600 also such a fragmentation. Yes, they are extended, as if someone was 0:17:38.600,0:17:43.720 out of breath or a bit confused, not as if they couldn't breathe or 0:17:43.720,0:17:48.840 suddenly stopped mid-sentence, during some concept, and these 0:17:48.840,0:17:52.400 repetitions are also intended to, for example, show just such shortness of breath, such 0:17:52.400,0:17:56.640 repetition, returning a little necessary, perhaps not 0:17:56.640,0:18:01.000 necessary, such compulsive returning to certain content, and I can 0:18:01.000,0:18:05.880 show you read one text that shows 0:18:05.880,0:18:10.840 these impersonal endings more, so I'll try. 0:18:10.840,0:18:14.840 24 m, they led each other along strings pierced through a flower on the sleeve 0:18:14.840,0:18:19.799 of Grandma's nightgown, they placed themselves at a distance so as not to touch 0:18:19.799,0:18:24.440 a vein glued to the bedsheet, her leg. We have enough 0:18:24.440,0:18:31.600 eyes, just lift it high. 24 m, I sat without armor. 0:18:31.600,0:18:36.960 And in this text, you can slightly see this motif of such dehumanization 0:18:36.960,0:18:41.120 and such ambiguity of the subject. In other texts, it also comes across strongly. 0:18:41.120,0:18:45.440 It also probably reveals, even a little more strongly, precisely these 0:18:45.440,0:18:49.039 aspects of this linguistic fragmentation. It's not as pronounced here, but 0:18:49.039,0:18:53.039 such repetitions often appear in my work, intended to 0:18:53.039,0:18:59.640 somewhat emphasize this sense of disorientation. And, as if dwelling 0:18:59.640,0:19:04.600 on the issue of language, the issue of marginalization of experiences, but also 0:19:04.600,0:19:09.400 the marginalization of language that is supposed to express these marginal 0:19:09.400,0:19:14.120 experiences, in the disability movement 0:19:14.120,0:19:20.360 we encounter attempts to reclaim certain terms that 0:19:20.360,0:19:25.760 have historically pejorative meanings. 0:19:25.760,0:19:32.360 But I'd be curious if, while working on your poems, 0:19:32.360,0:19:36.840 you encountered any expressions or terms that you felt you'd actually 0:19:36.840,0:19:41.520 like to see more widely adopted to describe certain 0:19:41.520,0:19:45.640 experiences related to disability. 0:19:45.919,0:19:49.520 This is a difficult question, because I feel like my poetry isn't 0:19:49.520,0:19:55.919 quite that long yet, so I think that here, unfortunately, I don't have 0:19:55.919,0:20:00.240 such a clear approach, because I simply feel 0:20:00.240,0:20:06.360 I haven't reached that point yet. But perhaps more than just expressing it, I'd like 0:20:06.360,0:20:11.559 to solidify an approach that 0:20:11.559,0:20:16.159 I've somehow felt myself, and here I'll have to refer back to 0:20:16.159,0:20:20.280 the theory, to Tobin 0:20:20.280,0:20:24.200 Zibers and his aesthetics of disability, 0:20:24.200,0:20:27.919 because that's where Tobin Zibers writes about— 0:20:27.919,0:20:33.320 well, strictly about visual content, but he says that 0:20:33.320,0:20:37.039 contemporary art, modern art, is actually disabled. This 0:20:37.039,0:20:41.200 disability is something that permeates it 100%. Because if 0:20:41.200,0:20:45.039 we create good art, we're not creating art that perfectly reflects 0:20:45.039,0:20:48.720 canonical human beauty, because that's kitschy. We're creating precisely this 0:20:48.720,0:20:51.760 kind of art, this vague, somewhat strange art, showing this 0:20:51.760,0:20:56.559 non-normative body, this other body. Because, for example, just like with 0:20:56.559,0:21:00.000 Zibers, which was truly kitschy, truly kitschy art, well, it was 0:21:00.000,0:21:03.360 Nazi art, that is, theoretically ideal art, 0:21:03.360,0:21:07.400 perfectly imitating the human being. And I'd like to follow Zibers's lead, so to speak. I 0:21:07.400,0:21:10.360 also have some problems with Zibers's book, but obviously 0:21:10.360,0:21:13.240 we won't discuss it in detail here, but I'd like to 0:21:13.240,0:21:17.159 expand on his idea a bit and say that, in my opinion, 0:21:17.159,0:21:20.080 contemporary poetry is completely saturated with disability. In the sense that this 0:21:20.080,0:21:24.440 disability is simply present in this poetry, also on this 0:21:24.440,0:21:28.600 linguistic level, and it is truly disabled poetry. I'd like to say 0:21:28.600,0:21:33.080 that the moment we create a poem, departing from these normative 0:21:33.080,0:21:37.120 patterns, depriving it, even abandoning the primacy of meaning altogether, 0:21:37.120,0:21:42.400 not writing about this particular reading in the context of meaning at all, shows 0:21:42.400,0:21:46.559 this text as somehow, I don't know, deficient, different, strange. It 0:21:46.559,0:21:50.159 's simply popular in poetry now, that this poetry has these aspects 0:21:50.159,0:21:54.320 of disability that permeate it and are simply 0:21:54.320,0:22:00.320 part of the texts. And perhaps I'd like people reading contemporary poetry 0:22:00.320,0:22:04.039 to think a little about this otherness and disability. I know this 0:22:04.039,0:22:08.120 is also a somewhat controversial idea, because it might border on 0:22:08.120,0:22:10.360 narrative prosthesis, on some exploitation of disability, but I don't think 0:22:10.360,0:22:14.919 so, because I feel that it's simply an experience that is, 0:22:14.919,0:22:18.880 to some extent, the experience of this contemporary Polish subject. And 0:22:18.880,0:22:22.400 this isn't a concept, because I wouldn't say I have strictly 0:22:22.400,0:22:28.480 personal concepts, but it's definitely this approach. When it comes to 0:22:28.480,0:22:35.080 contemporary Polish poetry, in your theoretical introduction to the volume GAP 0:22:35.080,0:22:40.400 you emphasize that little space is devoted to disability, both 0:22:40.400,0:22:46.480 directly and openly, and, as is often the case, to its 0:22:46.480,0:22:52.000 literary merits. And I'd like to ask why you think this is the case, why 0:22:52.000,0:22:58.840 is this happening? And observing the community of poets, 0:22:58.840,0:23:03.799 which you know somewhat, why do you think this is happening? 0:23:03.799,0:23:07.120 I think it's to some extent related to this fact. 0:23:07.120,0:23:11.120 Disability is perceived through identity, and now we don't 0:23:11.120,0:23:14.880 like identity poetry. It's poetry that's perceived as 0:23:14.880,0:23:19.880 shallow, more closed, and formulaic, and I have the impression that 0:23:19.880,0:23:22.960 I don't like that approach at all. In my opinion, identity poetry 0:23:22.960,0:23:26.440 is often very, very, very interesting or alluding to identity, 0:23:26.440,0:23:31.120 but it seems to me that the experience of disability is perceived this way, and 0:23:31.120,0:23:33.279 it's shallow, because I think the experience of disability 0:23:33.279,0:23:37.679 definitely transcends that approach altogether. Currently, in 0:23:37.679,0:23:42.679 Polish poetry, a more metaphorical approach is very popular 0:23:42.679,0:23:46.559 , relying on aspects that are also more disembodied, 0:23:46.559,0:23:51.080 perhaps a little more detached from the subject itself. 0:23:51.080,0:23:54.960 The moment disability appears, perceived 0:23:54.960,0:23:59.760 through the lens of identity and simultaneously through the lens of religion, it 0:23:59.760,0:24:04.600 's simply a bit too much for people. Not only is personal 0:24:04.600,0:24:11.520 identity, but it can't be 0:24:11.520,0:24:16.679 immediately applied to the poet, to the poetess, and that's not exactly 0:24:16.679,0:24:23.559 a popular form of writing at the moment, although that's where Ania 0:24:23.559,0:24:29.159 Adamowicz comes in. Anna Adamowicz with her new collection, Stuc Spine, Titanic 0:24:29.159,0:24:33.600 Wing, which tells the story of the subject, or rather, tells 0:24:33.600,0:24:36.000 the story of the subject. You can't say that, it's poetry, but it's poetry in which 0:24:36.000,0:24:40.440 there's this subject, and this experience 0:24:40.440,0:24:44.520 of scoliosis, and this experience of medicalization, of disability. 0:24:44.520,0:24:48.799 And it's a collection that was very, very well received, won 0:24:48.799,0:24:53.799 several awards, and was really well-received, so you could 0:24:53.799,0:24:59.799 say that this disability, to some extent, did show up 0:24:59.799,0:25:06.600 in this general, in this broad approach. There's also a book by Karolina 0:25:06.600,0:25:13.360 Kapusta called Fuzja Bordo, which is about—you could say 0:25:13.360,0:25:16.120 it's about—the experience of hospitalization, specifically 0:25:16.120,0:25:20.840 the experience of cancer, the experience of medicalization. These are 0:25:20.840,0:25:25.000 two truly excellent books written by excellent poets who 0:25:25.000,0:25:29.559 have made a significant impact in the world of poetry and who also specifically 0:25:29.559,0:25:34.080 address disability in terms of the content of the text. 0:25:34.080,0:25:38.240 Speaking of the latest collection, there's also, for example, 0:25:38.240,0:25:42.799 Marcin Podlaski's excellent book Czeźnia, which isn't about disability in terms 0:25:42.799,0:25:46.880 of content, but is so profoundly disability-related in 0:25:46.880,0:25:51.279 terms of language and form that it's hard to imagine anything more. In this book, all 0:25:51.279,0:25:55.399 the poems are written without Polish characters, like I don't know how to assign a text message 0:25:55.399,0:25:59.240 or something like that. And this is very interesting, because thanks to this, many words suddenly 0:25:59.240,0:26:02.080 have two meanings, or more, or even three. Because it's simply 0:26:02.080,0:26:07.399 written without Polish characters, and there's also this 0:26:07.399,0:26:10.360 difficulty in reading, some kind of overtone. I have the impression that this 0:26:10.360,0:26:13.000 is, for example, a great book that isn't about 0:26:13.000,0:26:16.440 disability in general, but is, to some extent, very 0:26:16.440,0:26:20.559 disability-related. So I think 0:26:20.559,0:26:23.960 there are voices in contemporary poetry that don't directly say they're talking about 0:26:23.960,0:26:29.520 disability, but it's there to some extent. And that's very 0:26:29.520,0:26:33.399 interesting. I don't think any of these poets would say, or any of the poets, that they're writing about 0:26:33.399,0:26:37.320 disability, but that disability is simply there somewhere 0:26:37.320,0:26:43.080 . And do you think they should write, 0:26:43.080,0:26:47.279 or when describing themselves and their work, that 0:26:47.279,0:26:51.200 this work also addresses 0:26:51.200,0:26:57.880 disability in some sense or to some extent. Just as 0:26:57.880,0:27:04.440 poets often openly say that, for example, 0:27:04.440,0:27:08.919 gender-related experiences are important to them and they talk about it openly. 0:27:08.919,0:27:12.240 In my opinion, yes, I think it was very good for that to be mentioned. 0:27:12.240,0:27:15.520 I think the fact that it doesn't appear is also symptomatic, that it 0:27:15.520,0:27:18.720 does say something. I have the impression that it's still talking about this, about 0:27:18.720,0:27:22.120 the general social attitude towards disability, and that it's a topic 0:27:22.120,0:27:28.120 that isn't pretty and isn't easy, and many people simply still perceive it as 0:27:28.120,0:27:33.399 It's a form of stigma and a feeling that it's simply not okay. 0:27:33.399,0:27:36.840 The experience of queer identity is something you can build your texts on. 0:27:36.840,0:27:40.960 They can still be read a bit sarcastically, because they'll be perceived as 0:27:40.960,0:27:45.720 identity-based or something, but many queer people write great 0:27:45.720,0:27:49.360 poetry, and this queerness is a very important aspect. When it comes to 0:27:49.360,0:27:53.760 disability, it's precisely this approach—it's a feeling that 0:27:53.760,0:27:56.720 it's simply here—it's a medical approach. This medical model 0:27:56.720,0:27:59.720 is seemingly visible, that indecisiveness is supposed to be an experience you keep 0:27:59.720,0:28:04.799 at home, something you don't talk about so much, and about which you shouldn't 0:28:04.799,0:28:08.600 strictly base your text. So I think, unfortunately, this is 0:28:08.600,0:28:13.159 simply the social perception of disability. But I also 0:28:13.159,0:28:18.200 believe that it's not necessary, that if someone feels they don't want to talk about it, no 0:28:18.200,0:28:20.559 problem. In a sense, it is, it's okay, it is, it is, it is difficult, it's not 0:28:20.559,0:28:23.799 easy, and perhaps someone doesn't even perceive their experience from a 0:28:23.799,0:28:26.640 disability perspective themselves. For him, it could be a completely different type of experience, 0:28:26.640,0:28:29.279 too. For example, the experience of medicalization associated with 0:28:29.279,0:28:33.279 the hospital doesn't have to be the experience of being able to walk. 0:28:33.279,0:28:37.279 So, as long as these elements appear in the texts at all, I 0:28:37.279,0:28:41.360 think they're very valuable. And perhaps it will 0:28:41.360,0:28:45.679 take a while before we reach that point where we talk about it so directly, but 0:28:45.679,0:28:50.080 it's okay. Unfortunately, I haven't heard 0:28:50.080,0:28:53.000 anyone talk about it so directly. Maybe Ania Adamowicz 0:28:53.000,0:28:56.600 is more simply talking about illness than disability, 0:28:56.600,0:29:00.640 specifically in the context of scoliosis. 0:29:00.640,0:29:05.200 But it's a book about that experience. 0:29:05.200,0:29:09.559 I also find it interesting that your creative work involves 0:29:09.559,0:29:14.600 exactly what you mentioned earlier: trying to find 0:29:14.600,0:29:20.200 people involved in poetry, mapping, networking, doing something 0:29:20.200,0:29:25.600 together. For example, you created workshops as 0:29:25.600,0:29:29.440 part of the feminist poetry association Wspólny 0:29:29.440,0:29:34.519 Pokój (Common Room). The workshops were titled "Mapping Languages ​​of Identity." As 0:29:34.519,0:29:39.559 I understand it, during these workshops, you and 0:29:39.559,0:29:45.960 the participants analyzed poems by various authors. 0:29:45.960,0:29:49.720 You analyzed the role disability can play in 0:29:49.720,0:29:55.679 poetic language. And I'm curious about some of the greatest tensions in 0:29:55.679,0:30:00.240 these discussions, where people differed most in their 0:30:00.240,0:30:04.080 interpretation of certain poems. 0:30:04.080,0:30:06.960 So, perhaps first, a bit of context about what these 0:30:06.960,0:30:11.240 workshops were all about. The workshops on "Speaking the Languages ​​of Identity" 0:30:11.240,0:30:15.200 [Music] were a bit broader, because there 0:30:15.200,0:30:21.360 were workshops on hysteria, feminism, and a quiz. 0:30:21.360,0:30:26.840 Sister Gabriela, Klaudia Januczewska, Robin, Nowakowski, and I also led workshops on disability 0:30:26.840,0:30:31.440 . Generally speaking, we searched for 0:30:31.440,0:30:35.399 some identity-related aspects in these texts and read 0:30:35.399,0:30:39.039 them from the perspective of the long wave of feminism, but we also 0:30:39.039,0:30:43.519 engaged in some polemics with the second wave of feminism, and that was important, 0:30:43.519,0:30:47.200 as it were, to see what the positive aspects of identity are now, and to 0:30:47.200,0:30:52.000 partially engage with them. Regarding disability, my 0:30:52.000,0:30:55.679 workshop was the culmination of a whole series, and quite a few people showed up, and 0:30:55.679,0:30:58.919 I was really surprised that there was such a great 0:30:58.919,0:31:03.240 discussion, that it was such a lively and important topic for people, and several 0:31:03.240,0:31:07.480 people with disabilities also came, and it seemed like each of us had something to 0:31:07.480,0:31:11.000 say. I feel that the worst problem, which I also 0:31:11.000,0:31:14.480 had retrospectively, and which would actually be a big part of the novel, was this 0:31:14.480,0:31:19.639 somewhat polemic with, in my case, Tobin Zbers, because I based my 0:31:19.639,0:31:24.799 workshop on Tobin Zbers's disability and the idea 0:31:24.799,0:31:28.399 I mentioned earlier, that contemporary poetry 0:31:28.399,0:31:31.799 can, to some extent, be drawn into this disability. 0:31:31.799,0:31:35.399 And during these workshops, we also saw a bit of the dangers 0:31:35.399,0:31:39.720 arising from this approach, my approach, and Zbers's approach, that 0:31:39.720,0:31:44.120 However, it's also a form of aestheticizing disability and 0:31:44.120,0:31:48.320 exploiting it in a certain way. In my opinion, this was very clearly 0:31:48.320,0:31:52.080 visible in Zibers's reading of the visual art. He 0:31:52.080,0:31:55.960 really placed a strong emphasis on this life, this horror, on 0:31:55.960,0:32:00.720 the physical and bodily aspects of the unspeakable, but it was as if 0:32:00.720,0:32:04.080 he emphasized it so strongly that I felt it somewhat obscured 0:32:04.080,0:32:08.600 the entire significance of the rest of the idea, of disability. And that's why I 0:32:08.600,0:32:11.399 felt that if we tried to shift 0:32:11.399,0:32:16.519 our approach from Ibers to text, which is also corporeal, but also 0:32:16.519,0:32:21.320 more disembodied, we could somehow stop perceiving disability as 0:32:21.320,0:32:26.720 one-dimensional and see it in linguistic devices, 0:32:26.720,0:32:31.159 not just in visual devices. Zibers's approach, however, is based on 0:32:31.159,0:32:35.559 some form of shocking, a 0:32:35.559,0:32:38.880 strictly visible disability. Although he also talks about 0:32:38.880,0:32:41.880 very good disabled artists who do things completely 0:32:41.880,0:32:44.880 differently, the moment he talks about the art of able-bodied artists often 0:32:44.880,0:32:49.440 relies on this very thing. So we mainly licked at this and argued with 0:32:49.440,0:32:53.519 the fact that his approach is deeply rooted in American 0:32:53.519,0:32:56.760 values, which are also different from ours here. So it was a sharp 0:32:56.760,0:33:01.519 theoretical conversation, but I feel like all the participants were also very, 0:33:01.519,0:33:04.960 very engaged. The moment we started reading these 0:33:04.960,0:33:07.480 poems and began exploring these aspects of disability, we started 0:33:07.480,0:33:11.240 really delving into the content itself. For example, we were reading 0:33:11.240,0:33:15.600 Martin Podlaski's texts. It was beautiful because we simply began 0:33:15.600,0:33:19.440 to notice it. So I think it would be great if more and more 0:33:19.440,0:33:23.679 workshops or meetings like this were held, providing a space for people 0:33:23.679,0:33:27.279 to talk about poetry from a specific perspective, which may not 0:33:27.279,0:33:30.760 be popular right now. It's interesting what you said, because 0:33:30.760,0:33:36.039 it's really like this aspect of personal experience emerged, 0:33:36.039,0:33:40.120 just as you're saying in these interpretations, i.e., 0:33:40.120,0:33:43.600 the term "identity" appeared in the workshop title, meaning again, the issue 0:33:43.600,0:33:47.679 of identity. But I'm curious whether disability was also 0:33:47.679,0:33:54.279 interpreted by you in some way from this systemic perspective, meaning 0:33:54.279,0:33:58.919 being disabled. Did that also come up? 0:33:58.919,0:34:02.600 Yes, this was especially apparent when we were reading 0:34:02.600,0:34:05.880 the poems, because I have the impression that in poetry, of course, there's 0:34:05.880,0:34:08.440 an individualization of the subject, but it's also very strongly as if this 0:34:08.440,0:34:11.320 social approach is simply visible, as one reads it, for example, 0:34:11.320,0:34:15.119 in Ania Adamowicz's texts, and with this medicalization, or even in my own 0:34:15.119,0:34:17.760 texts, this experience 0:34:17.760,0:34:22.639 of infantilization, medicalization, this social exclusion, this gawking, is also 0:34:22.639,0:34:25.159 visible. I have the impression that what was 0:34:25.159,0:34:30.119 visible, this personalization of disability poetry, is also 0:34:30.119,0:34:33.440 very apparent in that often, when we read these 0:34:33.440,0:34:37.520 texts, they were very desubjectivized texts, 0:34:37.520,0:34:41.000 as if they spoke of some experience, but this was precisely what 0:34:41.000,0:34:44.760 was often learned, this very social 0:34:44.760,0:34:48.919 shaping, that I speak of my body, but my body is not mine. My body 0:34:48.919,0:34:55.839 is measured, weighed, and medicalized. I'm talking about a certain 0:34:55.839,0:34:59.480 perception, I don't know, even of some sexual or romantic experience, 0:34:59.480,0:35:03.640 but it's not mine, because it's also received from the outside. So I have 0:35:03.640,0:35:06.400 the impression that it was also very visible in these poems, that the very 0:35:06.400,0:35:10.520 ridiculousness of this approach, that this is identity poetry, somewhat devalues 0:35:10.520,0:35:14.200 ​​the importance of how it's all 0:35:14.200,0:35:18.000 shaped socially, how this approach, as it were, 0:35:18.000,0:35:22.359 is often the result of various negative 0:35:22.359,0:35:26.760 social images and elements. So it was visible. Yes, I think it was 0:35:26.760,0:35:31.200 very visible. We tried, I don't even know if we succeeded yet. 0:35:31.200,0:35:34.720 To look for some productive aspect in poetry about disability. 0:35:34.720,0:35:39.200 More specifically, some kind of liberation. It seems to me that this 0:35:39.200,0:35:42.440 liberation appeared somewhat when the 0:35:42.440,0:35:46.400 subject was revealed, when it was somewhat clear who was there, who was there 0:35:46.400,0:35:51.720 in these texts. And I also began this workshop, as it were, with Cher 0:35:51.720,0:35:57.880 Maria Mari Wade, this poet, with her text "Not One of the," and so on. And I have 0:35:57.880,0:36:03.200 the impression that this American poet has wonderfully created 0:36:03.200,0:36:07.920 poetry that is very productive, which is precisely this poetry of liberation, 0:36:07.920,0:36:10.599 with this wonderful creep art. I also wanted to say a little about it 0:36:10.599,0:36:15.640 , that she really showed this, also somewhat awful 0:36:15.640,0:36:19.560 thing that someone might not like, with such strong, tough, 0:36:19.560,0:36:23.640 somewhat uncompromising, and somewhat direct language, this 0:36:23.640,0:36:27.839 experience of disability that breaks away from this normative approach 0:36:27.839,0:36:32.160 and that, as it were, strikes with this very fist, and we were looking for some of that in 0:36:32.160,0:36:37.000 poetry. I have the impression that we haven't found it so easily yet, but 0:36:37.000,0:36:41.480 we've been searching for it for a while, and even I feel that even in my own poems, 0:36:41.480,0:36:45.400 I haven't reached what Marie Wade has just reached, which is 0:36:45.400,0:36:50.720 that I feel that my poetry is precisely the kind of poetry that 0:36:50.720,0:36:55.079 finds greater liberation in language than in content itself. And I think that 0:36:55.079,0:36:59.160 's precisely the issue of language that sometimes arises 0:36:59.160,0:37:03.319 . You work in Polish, and at the same time, you often 0:37:03.319,0:37:12.040 refer to theorists from the Anglo-American area. 0:37:12.040,0:37:17.319 And tell me, in your opinion, are there any, have you noticed any 0:37:17.319,0:37:24.480 limitations, regarding their theory, and limitations regarding, I don't 0:37:24.480,0:37:29.079 even know, the context in which you live, so to speak, 0:37:29.079,0:37:34.839 generally speaking, looking at the map of Central and Eastern Europe. 0:37:34.839,0:37:38.119 In my opinion, these limitations are unfortunately quite significant, 0:37:38.119,0:37:41.880 taking them from poetry itself, but when I read theoreticians 0:37:41.880,0:37:46.720 from this Angolan region, I get the impression that they, their ideas, often 0:37:46.720,0:37:49.839 don't address our experiences. And this perhaps also shows 0:37:49.839,0:37:55.839 why poetry is so different from our own. 0:37:55.839,0:37:59.680 There's this approach to affirming disabled 0:37:59.680,0:38:04.200 identity, which is beautiful, but we didn't have 0:38:04.200,0:38:08.040 the opportunity to develop it here; our path simply took a different path; there 0:38:08.040,0:38:15.160 were those organized protests. In our country, there was more of 0:38:15.160,0:38:18.839 an experience of institutionalization. In our country, people with disabilities have 0:38:18.839,0:38:24.040 always been in the family, in a more caring sense, so I have the impression that 0:38:24.040,0:38:28.880 we simply don't have this approach to identity 0:38:28.880,0:38:33.440 , and that's not a bad thing; it's simply different. And the moment when 0:38:33.440,0:38:38.160 Zbers, for example, strongly relies on this, or even Thomson, makes it 0:38:38.160,0:38:43.640 difficult to translate this into our own context. 0:38:43.640,0:38:48.880 And even this aspect, that it's difficult to talk about identity. 0:38:48.880,0:38:53.040 I suspect that's the case there, too, but at a time when there are so many basic 0:38:53.040,0:38:57.040 , everyday problems that many people with disabilities 0:38:57.040,0:39:01.680 don't have the space to think about them, and that, for example 0:39:01.680,0:39:08.760 , we haven't really had our own 0:39:08.760,0:39:13.560 protests until now. In a way, of course, there's the protest in 2019, for example, but whether 0:39:13.560,0:39:16.480 there was a protest in the Sejm (lower house of parliament), but those are largely protests 0:39:16.480,0:39:19.920 by caregivers, based on the actions of caregivers, based on the voices 0:39:19.920,0:39:23.520 of caregivers. And the voices of people 0:39:23.520,0:39:26.920 with disabilities—because I prefer to call 0:39:26.920,0:39:31.000 them "disabled people"—are less heard, and that's a problem I 0:39:31.000,0:39:37.000 feel is less pronounced in the Anglo-Saxon space, while here it 0:39:37.000,0:39:40.839 's simply real. That is, we're still fighting for our voices, 0:39:40.839,0:39:44.760 which are often linked to those of caregivers. They are, of course, often 0:39:44.760,0:39:48.640 shared, but not always shared. There is also this primacy 0:39:48.640,0:39:52.040 of Anglo-Saxon literature in general when it comes to the impact of disability, which 0:39:52.040,0:39:58.440 we slowly have to deal with somehow and create voices from a more 0:39:58.440,0:40:01.240 For example, Eastern Europe and other countries. 0:40:01.240,0:40:06.359 Fortunately, I have the impression that for several years now, we have been beginning to engage in dialogue with 0:40:06.359,0:40:12.319 this Anglo-American movement. A very interesting initiative is the 0:40:12.319,0:40:17.000 Disability Studies Platform at the Jagiellonian University. 0:40:17.000,0:40:21.400 We encourage and highly recommend all the initiatives 0:40:21.400,0:40:25.240 taking place there. Recordings of these 0:40:25.240,0:40:31.359 various meetings are also available online. You mentioned the one about the path of activist development in 0:40:31.359,0:40:35.760 Poland, among other things. I have observed, 0:40:35.760,0:40:40.680 having been involved in the women with disabilities movement since 2004, and 0:40:40.680,0:40:44.880 later also through research, that paradoxically, many things have been happening, 0:40:44.880,0:40:50.280 especially when it comes to women with disabilities activism. However, 0:40:50.280,0:40:54.839 20 years later, from today's perspective, looking back, 0:40:54.839,0:40:58.920 it may seem that little has happened. The problem is that unfortunately, 0:40:58.920,0:41:03.599 we lack an archive, a broadly understood archive of disability activism 0:41:03.599,0:41:07.520 , and for the mainstream feminist movement 0:41:07.520,0:41:10.680 , for example, 0:41:10.680,0:41:13.720 to be more inclusive when it comes to the history of women with 0:41:13.720,0:41:18.800 disabilities activism. Some of this activism and these actions took 0:41:18.800,0:41:23.280 place even before the internet era. 0:41:23.280,0:41:29.160 That means the documentation of certain events isn't digital. They're often 0:41:29.160,0:41:35.240 crammed into boxes in various activists' homes. So I wanted 0:41:35.240,0:41:40.560 to emphasize that this is something for those listening, and it's something worth 0:41:40.560,0:41:43.760 pursuing both research-wise and activist-wise, because we have 0:41:43.760,0:41:49.160 a history. It may not be as spectacular, let's say, as 0:41:49.160,0:41:53.480 was the case with a few activist actions in the UK 0:41:53.480,0:41:57.560 or the US, because the movement isn't as dynamic on a daily basis 0:41:57.560,0:42:01.880 , simply because there aren't the resources to do so. However, in 0:42:01.880,0:42:07.040 Poland, a lot has been happening, but we're not yet fully 0:42:07.040,0:42:12.359 aware of it, and I hope that the younger 0:42:12.359,0:42:17.480 generation of activists will also take an interest in it. 0:42:17.480,0:42:20.960 I also think, referring to this topic, that it's now 0:42:20.960,0:42:23.680 starting to emerge very strongly, for example, on 0:42:23.680,0:42:26.599 Instagram and in other areas. 0:42:26.599,0:42:30.400 This activism is already becoming more visible, and I 0:42:30.400,0:42:33.920 think that's really great, and I think it's also worth taking a closer look at. 0:42:33.920,0:42:38.520 There are so many people now who are speaking directly about their experiences 0:42:38.520,0:42:42.040 and talking about social issues, in the sense that they're not only 0:42:42.040,0:42:44.839 focusing on their individual experiences of helpfulness, 0:42:44.839,0:42:48.319 but also talking about these more social aspects. I think 0:42:48.319,0:42:51.960 Instagram is doing a good job here. It's clear that this is a slightly 0:42:51.960,0:42:55.720 different form of activism, but also the 0:42:55.720,0:43:00.800 2019 protests are happening right now, where many people with disabilities are coming and doing a lot and 0:43:00.800,0:43:05.720 saying a lot of very important things. So even now, you can already see that this is 0:43:05.720,0:43:10.119 moving forward, but as you said, it would definitely be worth examining more closely. 0:43:10.119,0:43:14.839 One of the aspects of your work, I have the impression, is an 0:43:14.839,0:43:20.760 attempt to address accessibility as much as possible. 0:43:20.760,0:43:25.000 I don't remember who said it, 0:43:25.000,0:43:29.920 but some activist in the United States in the 1980s said that 0:43:29.920,0:43:33.880 it's very important, of course, who's invited, right? Who's at the so 0:43:33.880,0:43:38.119 -called table, but even more important is who's missing and who's 0:43:38.119,0:43:42.280 missing from a given event, right? Who couldn't make it, who 0:43:42.280,0:43:48.000 wasn't even invited, but simply couldn't participate. And with that in 0:43:48.000,0:43:54.160 mind, I greatly appreciate, but I'm also curious about, the details regarding 0:43:54.160,0:44:00.079 this attempt at artistic audio description, 0:44:00.079,0:44:05.440 which you mentioned in the context of creating an artistic zine about the experience 0:44:05.440,0:44:09.800 of disability, which you're creating with the informal group 0:44:09.800,0:44:13.200 of women with disabilities, Multifrenie. 0:44:13.200,0:44:18.480 And if you could say a little more about what you mean by 0:44:18.480,0:44:25.400 artistic audio description, and perhaps more broadly about accessibility and poetry in general. 0:44:25.400,0:44:30.920 Starting a bit with the zine and the group Multifrenie. I personally 0:44:30.920,0:44:34.280 invite all women, women with delays, to join us, 0:44:34.280,0:44:40.000 Or not just women, or rather, people who are categorized as women. 0:44:40.000,0:44:42.480 We meet once a month and simply discuss 0:44:42.480,0:44:47.839 theoretical perspectives from various researchers on disability. But our 0:44:47.839,0:44:51.680 concept was to create a work, 0:44:51.680,0:44:55.800 because we all felt that disability, in terms of 0:44:55.800,0:44:59.559 activism, is a very important topic, but also a very important topic 0:44:59.559,0:45:03.440 specifically when it comes to art, when it comes to the fact that people with 0:45:03.440,0:45:06.359 disabilities sometimes need a space to express their 0:45:06.359,0:45:10.800 voices. Not only when it comes to social issues or 0:45:10.800,0:45:17.480 strictly activist issues, but also, combining them, simply when it comes 0:45:17.480,0:45:22.520 to art, we wanted to give women with disabilities the opportunity 0:45:22.520,0:45:27.599 to speak about their experiences from a literary perspective. 0:45:27.599,0:45:31.559 This zine will include poems, essays, and some 0:45:31.559,0:45:35.319 prose pieces that are meant to connect with this idea of 0:45:35.319,0:45:38.640 ​​experience and disability. Well, I personally believe that 0:45:38.640,0:45:42.599 art is the best form of activism, and I think a lot can be achieved 0:45:42.599,0:45:46.880 simply by creating art. Sometimes it reaches 0:45:46.880,0:45:50.800 people more deeply, sometimes the very moment we write 0:45:50.800,0:45:55.520 a well-written Instagram post about social difficulties for the 50th time, it might 0:45:55.520,0:46:01.000 not be as if it's reaching some people, not just a good play in the theater or a great 0:46:01.000,0:46:05.119 poem, or some aspect that simply moves them, but a slightly 0:46:05.119,0:46:09.119 different way of talking about disability. So, yes, but to 0:46:09.119,0:46:12.520 summarize, in this zine, we want to give people a space to talk about their 0:46:12.520,0:46:16.160 experiences of disability, stylized as women, and we want 0:46:16.160,0:46:21.319 this zine to be 100% accessible. This artistic audio description is meant 0:46:21.319,0:46:24.200 to be just such a form, a slightly different form of art, because this photo will 0:46:24.200,0:46:27.640 also include graphics, and we'd like to 0:46:27.640,0:46:32.319 record the texts in this audio description, of course, but also 0:46:32.319,0:46:36.720 to depict these 0:46:36.720,0:46:41.760 graphic elements in a slightly more poetic and even non-obvious way, to simply describe them more 0:46:41.760,0:46:45.079 artistically, not literally. And of course, this might mean that it won't be a 0:46:45.079,0:46:48.480 typical audio description, because it won't be a typical audio description, which might not 0:46:48.480,0:46:51.880 meet certain requirements, perhaps regarding clarity or something like that 0:46:51.880,0:46:55.800 , but we'd like to offer the opportunity to feel 0:46:55.800,0:47:00.760 the experience of the zine itself, for it to be, uh, a thoroughly 0:47:00.760,0:47:05.680 artistic experience, and perhaps that would be important. And when it comes to 0:47:05.680,0:47:09.960 the accessibility of poetry, unfortunately, many events, especially in terms of architectural 0:47:09.960,0:47:13.440 aspects, are not accessible, and the accessibility 0:47:13.440,0:47:16.559 of the poetry community for people with disabilities is very limited. 0:47:16.559,0:47:22.880 Well, there's no explanation for that. Audi often hosts events 0:47:22.880,0:47:27.400 by poets who don't have much money, often taking place in various venues 0:47:27.400,0:47:34.000 or cafes, which are often inaccessible, so 0:47:34.000,0:47:37.880 unfortunately, this space is often not accessible. We will definitely hold our 0:47:37.880,0:47:40.640 premiere in an accessible location, but we do it because it's important to us 0:47:40.640,0:47:45.000 . And unfortunately, for many people, the presence of people with 0:47:45.000,0:47:48.400 disabilities at events, whether activist or artistic, is still just 0:47:48.400,0:47:52.240 an added bonus. In a sense, it's what would be nice if we 0:47:52.240,0:47:55.079 had the money for accessibility, but if we don't, well, that's too bad. 0:47:55.079,0:48:00.000 Yes, that's how it is. That's the way the world is. And the presence of people with disabilities at all kinds of events simply continues 0:48:00.000,0:48:04.720 . It's still just 0:48:04.720,0:48:08.760 an added bonus, and I have a feeling that until this changes, this problem will continue 0:48:08.760,0:48:13.520 to exist—that not all events are 0:48:13.520,0:48:19.040 accessible, because people with disabilities are an important part of the feminist 0:48:19.040,0:48:22.680 and queer community. It's just that there are events available that are related to 0:48:22.680,0:48:27.040 disability, and those that aren't, very often aren't. And often these 0:48:27.040,0:48:32.160 artistic, so-called or creative events around disability 0:48:32.160,0:48:36.240 take the form of, for example, so-called workshops. 0:48:36.240,0:48:41.119 Occupational therapy, and these workshops can be—I mean, the effects of these workshops can be 0:48:41.119,0:48:46.440 excellent. However, in the hierarchy of importance, when it comes to what constitutes 0:48:46.440,0:48:54.000 art, let's face it, this type of activity is sort of at the bottom, so 0:48:54.000,0:48:57.280 it's truly a huge problem. And 0:48:57.280,0:49:02.440 tell me, until when can we submit work to the Zine? 0:49:02.440,0:49:06.760 The Zine will still be open for submissions for quite some time; at least until the end 0:49:06.760,0:49:11.119 of August, there will definitely be a round of entries, so we'll be inviting everyone to 0:49:11.119,0:49:14.799 submit their work. And, referring a bit to what 0:49:14.799,0:49:18.160 you said about occupational therapy, I have the impression that 0:49:18.160,0:49:21.119 another aspect of why disability is such an 0:49:21.119,0:49:25.440 under-represented topic in contemporary poetry is that 0:49:25.440,0:49:28.359 talking about disability is always perceived from a therapeutic perspective 0:49:28.359,0:49:31.119 . I write about disability, that is, I'm 0:49:31.119,0:49:35.359 self-therapeutic, I perform in the theater, being myself with 0:49:35.359,0:49:39.280 a disability, so for me it's a form of therapy. It's a constant 0:49:39.280,0:49:42.559 fact that if a person with a disability appears somewhere in 0:49:42.559,0:49:46.280 the artistic sphere, it's simply perceived as 0:49:46.280,0:49:50.880 therapy and not perceived as professional. There's also the 0:49:50.880,0:49:53.480 aspect that a disabled person who writes, 0:49:53.480,0:49:59.880 creates, or does artistic work is perceived as non-professional. 0:49:59.880,0:50:03.160 Is there a single poem you would recommend 0:50:03.160,0:50:07.200 to people interested in 0:50:07.200,0:50:14.040 disability and poetry, but haven't yet encountered any poems 0:50:14.040,0:50:16.880 on this topic or in this area? Is there a poem 0:50:16.880,0:50:21.400 you would offer as a hook, one that's truly worth reading? 0:50:21.400,0:50:24.599 I think it would be a bit different when it comes to Polish poetry and a bit different 0:50:24.599,0:50:27.680 when it comes to foreign poetry. Regarding Polish poetry, 0:50:27.680,0:50:31.960 I've already talked a bit about Anna Adamowicz and "Break the Titan's Wing," and 0:50:31.960,0:50:35.359 I would highly recommend not just one poem, but the entire volume. I feel it 0:50:35.359,0:50:38.720 's truly one of the best volumes of famous poetry, which speaks 0:50:38.720,0:50:41.760 in some way to the experience of medicalization—that 0:50:41.760,0:50:45.319 one experience of disability, even illness. It's a great book, 0:50:45.319,0:50:48.760 so I highly recommend it and think it could be a good entry point. As for 0:50:48.760,0:50:52.160 foreign poetry, as I've already mentioned, I would also talk about Chery Maria Wade. I 0:50:52.160,0:50:56.040 simply really like her poems and the way she performs them. 0:50:56.040,0:51:00.000 You really have to see them. These are two poets who are 0:51:00.000,0:51:04.410 very important to me in this regard, so I would definitely recommend them. 0:51:04.410,0:51:11.480 [Music] But we're not finished yet, because our 0:51:11.480,0:51:19.000 podcast concludes with three cyclical questions that align with the theme 0:51:19.000,0:51:23.240 of our series, disability and engagement. And the first question for 0:51:23.240,0:51:30.480 our guests is this: What event or initiative is related 0:51:30.480,0:51:35.920 to the disability movement in Poland? What event do you consider 0:51:35.920,0:51:40.359 personally important? For me personally, I have to admit that 0:51:40.359,0:51:45.240 this is a development of Kreipart, in the sense of simply developing art around 0:51:45.240,0:51:48.240 disability, and I feel that it also significantly transforms the overall 0:51:48.240,0:51:51.079 approach to people with disabilities. The moment 0:51:51.079,0:51:54.440 we show that people with disabilities create good art and move away from 0:51:54.440,0:51:59.480 the model of therapy and the model of looking down, then in some 0:51:59.480,0:52:04.040 way we can overcome this social approach, somewhat backwards. And of course, not 0:52:04.040,0:52:06.359 many people, not that many people go to the theater, not that many people read 0:52:06.359,0:52:09.839 poetry, not that many people read prose, and so on, but to some extent, 0:52:09.839,0:52:13.160 some people are getting it, and I have the impression that the fact that in Poland, 0:52:13.160,0:52:16.400 people with disabilities are starting to appear, who create and 0:52:16.400,0:52:20.240 create brilliantly, like Daniel Kotowski, or other 0:52:20.240,0:52:25.240 people like that, suddenly people realize that we are simply creative 0:52:25.240,0:52:28.319 individuals like any other. And I think that's also 0:52:28.319,0:52:32.280 irrelevant. I also really like the fact that we're already 0:52:32.280,0:52:35.720 hearing more and more about these protests in the mainstream, for example, in 2019, that they 0:52:35.720,0:52:40.359 're slowly becoming more vocal, and that, for example, they're also becoming more and more 0:52:40.359,0:52:42.559 You can hear people with disabilities speaking there, not just 0:52:42.559,0:52:46.640 caregivers. So I have a feeling that these things are interconnected, that 0:52:46.640,0:52:49.920 our voices are getting louder when it comes to art, and perhaps our 0:52:49.920,0:52:55.559 voices are getting louder when it comes to activism, so they go hand in hand. And there's this 0:52:55.559,0:53:00.079 great thing, which is that we're starting to create Central 0:53:00.079,0:53:03.640 European disability studies, that they're already underway, that they're working, and that 0:53:03.640,0:53:07.400 they're doing well. I also think it's very important that this approach to 0:53:07.400,0:53:11.720 disability, specific to Central European countries, 0:53:11.720,0:53:15.520 is also recognized and described theoretically in some way. The second 0:53:15.520,0:53:19.920 question in our series is: If you had to name 0:53:19.920,0:53:24.720 one thing, one aspect, what do you think is most missing 0:53:24.720,0:53:28.119 from the contemporary narrative on disability? 0:53:28.119,0:53:31.119 I have to admit, I've been waiting for this question. Mainly referring again 0:53:31.119,0:53:34.920 to the Polish scene, in my opinion, there's a lack of intersectionality, a very significant 0:53:34.920,0:53:38.400 lack of intersectionality, meaning that, for example, 0:53:38.400,0:53:41.640 disabled activists aren't very visible in the Kurd movement. 0:53:41.640,0:53:44.839 Feminist circles rarely feature women with disabilities, and 0:53:44.839,0:53:48.880 even if they do, their voices are unheard. Similarly, 0:53:48.880,0:53:52.480 disabled activists often don't talk about other elements of their 0:53:52.480,0:53:54.760 identity. They simply focus on the 0:53:54.760,0:53:58.000 disability aspect. And I feel that this lack 0:53:58.000,0:54:01.400 of self-interest is crucial here, because, firstly, 0:54:01.400,0:54:04.599 disabled people are often not included in these activist circles. Because, as 0:54:04.599,0:54:08.319 we've already mentioned, these circles are often inaccessible because these accessibility groups are 0:54:08.319,0:54:12.680 treated as something extra, and for example, I don't know, people say that 0:54:12.680,0:54:16.200 no one deaf will show up anyway, so we don't have to translate it into 0:54:16.200,0:54:19.520 full. Deaf people probably won't show up 0:54:19.520,0:54:24.319 . So it seems to me that working on 0:54:24.319,0:54:27.720 intersectional disability activism and 0:54:27.720,0:54:30.520 ensuring that everyone, in these environments, in these other 0:54:30.520,0:54:34.280 activist spaces, has a place for people with disabilities, is 0:54:34.280,0:54:38.599 something that doesn't exist yet and would be very important for it to start happening. 0:54:38.599,0:54:43.640 Can I also treat this answer to this question as an answer to 0:54:43.640,0:54:48.440 the third question, which is what specific social change you dream of? 0:54:48.440,0:54:51.599 And I kind of do, and kind of don't. I'd like to add something here, I must admit, 0:54:51.599,0:54:56.280 because I really dream of social change where 0:54:56.280,0:54:59.319 all people with disabilities are heard. We talk so nicely about 0:54:59.319,0:55:03.480 activism these days, and that's certainly beautiful, but activism is often unfortunately 0:55:03.480,0:55:07.480 dependent on a specific group, for example, the Instagram activism. However, these are often 0:55:07.480,0:55:11.960 people who are better off, who function better, who aren't 0:55:11.960,0:55:15.880 dependent on their caregivers, and so on, and their voices will be heard, which is 0:55:15.880,0:55:19.440 very important, and we need to remember them and see them. But there are so 0:55:19.440,0:55:23.160 many people who are in completely different situations and have completely different 0:55:23.160,0:55:26.119 needs, for whom the issue of identity is really 0:55:26.119,0:55:30.480 what's on their minds lately, because their daily needs are simply completely different. And I 0:55:30.480,0:55:34.400 feel like what I'd really like is for activists 0:55:34.400,0:55:38.200 to not forget about them. I mean, for them to talk about them too, for them to 0:55:38.200,0:55:41.920 highlight people who simply have different situations. For example, it's great 0:55:41.920,0:55:45.319 that we have more and more neurodiverse activists, which is amazing and 0:55:45.319,0:55:49.880 I'm really happy about that, but there are also those who often function better, and 0:55:49.880,0:55:52.920 it's time to forget about those who have it harder, who simply 0:55:52.920,0:55:58.760 don't have the opportunities, who are nonverbal, don't have the opportunity for this type of activity. It's 0:55:58.760,0:56:02.799 as if those who have heard more about them don't speak up, they will be completely 0:56:02.799,0:56:07.520 forgotten. So I'd really like for the diverse voices of people 0:56:07.520,0:56:12.359 with disabilities to be heard. Dominika, thank you so much 0:56:12.359,0:56:18.119 for what you do, what you'll be doing, and also for this conversation today. We keep our 0:56:18.119,0:56:21.440 fingers crossed for the activities of the informal group of women with 0:56:21.440,0:56:26.720 disabilities Multifrenie, of which you are a part, and we support you 0:56:26.720,0:56:31.760 Your efforts. And of course, we encourage everyone to submit their work 0:56:31.760,0:56:37.799 to the Zine, which is currently being created. Many thanks again, Dominika. 0:56:37.799,0:56:41.800 Thank you, too, for a great conversation, and thank you for letting me participate. 0:56:41.800,0:56:47.209 [Music] 0:56:47.359,0:56:51.640 The "Engaged Polish Studies" podcast series was produced as part of the 0:56:51.640,0:56:56.559 "Polish Studies and the Challenges of the Modern World" project. It was co-financed from the state budget 0:56:56.559,0:57:00.680 under the Minister of Education and Science's Science for 0:57:00.680,0:57:04.760 Society 2 program. The project number is in the description. 0:57:04.760,0:57:09.119 We invite you to listen to subsequent episodes available on 0:57:09.119,0:57:15.280 Spraker, Spotify, and YouTube, as well as in the online Polish Studies bulletin. 0:57:15.280,0:57:24.209 See you there. [Music]