0:00:05.000,0:00:07.620
We invite you to listen to episodes of the new

0:00:07.620,0:00:11.300
podcast series from the Spotkania Biuletynu (Bulletin Meetings), titled "

0:00:11.300,0:00:12.260
Engaged Polish Studies.

0:00:14.040,0:00:16.880
" Polish studies aren't a helpless observation

0:00:16.880,0:00:17.380
of the world.

0:00:17.860,0:00:19.420
They offer tools

0:00:19.420,0:00:20.700
to navigate it,

0:00:20.700,0:00:22.500
help understand it,

0:00:22.660,0:00:26.000
and prevent exclusion and loneliness.

0:00:27.620,0:00:29.680
This is the Polish studies

0:00:29.680,0:00:31.840
we want to showcase through our project:

0:00:33.380,0:00:35.460
Engaged Polish Studies.

0:00:48.060,0:00:51.280
In the next episode of the "Slubin Meetings Biuletynu" podcast series,

0:00:51.280,0:00:53.920
we'll discuss maladic narratives,

0:00:53.940,0:00:55.500
or narratives about illness,

0:00:55.500,0:00:58.360
and representations of illness in contemporary culture

0:00:58.700,0:00:59.960
, not just literary culture.

0:00:59.980,0:01:00.960
We'll also discuss

0:01:01.000,0:01:03.740
how literary studies interprets and organizes these

0:01:03.740,0:01:07.540
kinds of stories and the tools they use.

0:01:08.040,0:01:10.520
The pretext for today's conversation is

0:01:10.520,0:01:12.620
the publication of two issues of the literary movement

0:01:12.620,0:01:14.820
devoted to maladic discourse,

0:01:14.820,0:01:16.820
a concept we'll attempt

0:01:16.820,0:01:18.340
to unpack and

0:01:18.400,0:01:19.760
dissect today,

0:01:19.920,0:01:22.980
thanks to the editors of one of

0:01:22.980,0:01:23.380
the movement's maladic issues,

0:01:23.380,0:01:24.560
who are with us today.

0:01:24.620,0:01:25.480
Joanna Szewczyk,

0:01:25.500,0:01:28.080
PhD, assistant professor in the Department of Anthropology,

0:01:28.100,0:01:30.340
Literature, and Cultural Studies at the Faculty of Polish Studies

0:01:30.340,0:01:31.820
, Jagiellonian University.

0:01:31.860,0:01:32.720
Good morning,

0:01:32.800,0:01:33.200
Joanna.

0:01:33.200,0:01:33.760
Good morning,

0:01:33.800,0:01:36.080
it's a pleasure to meet you, and thank you very much for the invitation.

0:01:36.700,0:01:39.460
Also with us today is Wiktoria Kulak, MA,

0:01:39.480,0:01:42.040
a PhD candidate in literary studies at the Doctoral School

0:01:42.040,0:01:44.660
of the University of the Commission of National Education in Krakow.

0:01:44.700,0:01:45.400
Good morning.

0:01:46.400,0:01:49.420
You are members of the Center for Research on Transcultural Discourses and

0:01:49.420,0:01:50.280
Disorders of Illness,

0:01:50.420,0:01:52.500
which operates at the Faculty of Polish Studies, Jagiellonian University.

0:01:52.520,0:01:55.700
You are both also interested in women's history

0:01:55.950,0:01:57.670
, feminist discourse, and

0:01:57.670,0:01:59.490
the history of women's writing.

0:01:59.610,0:02:00.350
You,
Joanna,

0:02:00.410,0:02:02.910
also study mourning and

0:02:02.910,0:02:05.210
pandemic narratives in contemporary culture,

0:02:05.230,0:02:05.550
while you,

0:02:05.550,0:02:05.910
Wiktoria,

0:02:05.910,0:02:08.470
are more drawn to theoretical,

0:02:08.470,0:02:09.190
literary,

0:02:09.190,0:02:10.990
and genological reflection.

0:02:11.009,0:02:13.350
You are preparing a doctoral dissertation on

0:02:13.350,0:02:16.430
contemporary women's column writing.

0:02:16.950,0:02:19.210
There is another important thread

0:02:19.210,0:02:20.130
that connects you,

0:02:20.150,0:02:22.730
which provides the pretext for our

0:02:22.730,0:02:23.250
conversation today.

0:02:23.740,0:02:27.060
This is a research interest related to

0:02:27.060,0:02:29.520
illness narratives,

0:02:29.520,0:02:32.200
which are an important element of contemporary

0:02:32.200,0:02:33.220
literary culture.

0:02:33.220,0:02:36.920
They also constitute an important quantitative resource of these

0:02:36.920,0:02:39.640
malaria narratives in contemporary literary culture,

0:02:39.660,0:02:43.320
but there are also quite a few in earlier literary culture.

0:02:43.360,0:02:46.400
Due to this presence of malaria narratives in

0:02:46.400,0:02:47.940
culture, their quantity,

0:02:47.940,0:02:49.020
availability, and

0:02:49.080,0:02:50.640
universality in a sense.

0:02:50.840,0:02:51.740
It seems

0:02:51.780,0:02:55.460
that storytelling is very

0:02:55.460,0:02:56.620
necessary for illness, or in illness.

0:02:56.620,0:02:59.220
How can we explain

0:02:59.220,0:03:02.440
this strong connection between storytelling and illness from a literary perspective?

0:03:04.040,0:03:07.340
After this excellent introduction, I could also

0:03:07.340,0:03:07.920
add

0:03:07.940,0:03:10.540
that the scholarly relationships,

0:03:10.560,0:03:17.000
which were very satisfying for me and Wiktoria,

0:03:17.000,0:03:21.060
included not only the editorial work on two

0:03:21.060,0:03:24.640
issues of the Malady literary movement,

0:03:24.700,0:03:29.000
but it's also worth mentioning an earlier

0:03:29.000,0:03:29.500
project

0:03:29.540,0:03:33.460
we had the pleasure of working on together.

0:03:33.640,0:03:38.460
Collaboration with the then-forming center

0:03:38.460,0:03:41.000
for research on cultural discourses of illness at

0:03:41.000,0:03:43.700
the Faculty of Polish Studies at the Jagiellonian University.

0:03:43.700,0:03:46.560
I'm referring here to a three-day conference,

0:03:46.700,0:03:51.100
a nationwide academic conference devoted precisely

0:03:51.100,0:03:53.980
to malaria narratives in literature and culture,

0:03:54.060,0:03:58.940
which we then gathered under the banner of "illnesswriting."

0:03:59.080,0:04:03.060
This conference truly attracted a large number

0:04:03.060,0:04:06.820
of representatives from various

0:04:06.820,0:04:07.320
research centers,

0:04:07.360,0:04:09.300
including academics,

0:04:09.300,0:04:11.060
doctoral candidates, and

0:04:11.060,0:04:12.080
students.

0:04:12.260,0:04:16.399
This resulted in two issues

0:04:16.399,0:04:17.019
of the literary movement,

0:04:17.100,0:04:21.740
one of which we had the pleasure of editing,

0:04:21.740,0:04:23.400
titled "Maladic Discourse:

0:04:23.480,0:04:25.040
Figures and Ontologies."

0:04:25.280,0:04:28.060
The title referred to the search for such a

0:04:28.060,0:04:32.340
The broadest possible framework for encompassing the

0:04:32.340,0:04:33.420
diverse texts

0:04:33.420,0:04:37.640
that have contributed to this issue under one

0:04:37.640,0:04:39.680
umbrella.

0:04:39.720,0:04:41.620
The immense interest the conference generated,

0:04:41.720,0:04:46.280
however ,

0:04:46.360,0:04:50.680
is a sign of the popularity and growing expansion

0:04:50.680,0:04:54.660
of maladic narratives or pathographic narratives in

0:04:54.660,0:04:55.540
literature.

0:04:56.430,0:04:59.970
In Poland and, of course, beyond.

0:05:00.250,0:05:01.950
Indeed,

0:05:01.970,0:05:05.690
when we try to consider

0:05:05.730,0:05:09.250
why a story about illness, or a story within illness

0:05:09.250,0:05:11.350
, is so necessary,

0:05:11.410,0:05:13.450
it seems to me

0:05:13.450,0:05:14.650
that we could draw

0:05:14.710,0:05:17.890
on anthropological and literary tropes.

0:05:17.890,0:05:18.390
That is,

0:05:18.390,0:05:21.490
if we consider various concepts

0:05:21.490,0:05:22.530
of identity

0:05:22.610,0:05:25.770
that assume a certain processuality of identity,

0:05:25.830,0:05:27.570
or its design,

0:05:27.650,0:05:29.670
the idea
that identity is not something given

0:05:29.670,0:05:32.290
but rather a certain project,

0:05:32.310,0:05:33.970
then it seems

0:05:34.010,0:05:38.730
that from this perspective, a connection between story and illness

0:05:38.730,0:05:41.150
is already revealed

0:05:41.150,0:05:43.790
, because both are, in fact,

0:05:43.790,0:05:45.070
processual in some way.

0:05:45.130,0:05:46.970
It is a process

0:05:46.970,0:05:51.370
whose end is often difficult to

0:05:51.370,0:05:51.910
predict

0:05:51.910,0:05:53.210
or anticipate.

0:05:53.770,0:05:58.210
At the same time, if we look at the narrative

0:05:58.210,0:06:03.030
as a process, and at the person's identity as a

0:06:03.030,0:06:04.730
process,

0:06:04.830,0:06:07.430
at this identity narrative,

0:06:07.510,0:06:10.330
then illness can indeed become

0:06:10.330,0:06:14.190
a crucial point of life reorientation.

0:06:14.210,0:06:15.250
Perhaps a crisis,

0:06:15.250,0:06:17.550
but also an opportunity to reorient,

0:06:17.630,0:06:21.270
to reevaluate this identity narrative,

0:06:21.390,0:06:23.030
to reorient one's identity

0:06:23.050,0:06:25.710
as an ill person .

0:06:25.710,0:06:26.870
So it seems to me

0:06:26.910,0:06:29.630
that these connections between illness,

0:06:29.630,0:06:30.590
narrative,

0:06:30.590,0:06:34.850
and literature are crucial here and

0:06:34.850,0:06:38.130
should be particularly emphasized.

0:06:39.740,0:06:44.080
Framing one's identity within a narrative framework would

0:06:44.080,0:06:45.860
be an action

0:06:45.880,0:06:46.880
that provides,

0:06:46.900,0:06:49.120
as Antony Giddens wrote,

0:06:49.200,0:06:53.020
a sense of ontological security in a constantly

0:06:53.020,0:06:54.920
changing world.

0:06:54.980,0:06:56.140
It seems

0:06:56.260,0:07:02.440
that this story about illness is in some way

0:07:02.440,0:07:04.680
an important element of this.

0:07:04.840,0:07:08.800
It perhaps allows for the experience to make sense,

0:07:08.910,0:07:13.750
or to be framed within the narrative, which is also subject

0:07:13.750,0:07:16.450
to change under the influence of the experience of illness.

0:07:16.530,0:07:20.890
At the same time, it is also perhaps an opportunity to

0:07:20.890,0:07:25.090
attempt to make sense of or understand this

0:07:25.090,0:07:25.970
experience.

0:07:26.540,0:07:27.600
Often difficult,

0:07:27.640,0:07:29.340
usually challenging,

0:07:29.360,0:07:31.880
perhaps that would be a better way to put it.

0:07:32.320,0:07:35.040
And so, looking back,

0:07:35.080,0:07:37.940
both at the number of lectures

0:07:37.960,0:07:41.400
at our conference

0:07:41.420,0:07:43.500
that dealt with literature

0:07:43.500,0:07:45.580
and at the

0:07:45.660,0:07:48.960
content of the issue of Ruch Literacki we edited

0:07:48.960,0:07:50.520
,

0:07:50.600,0:07:52.080
one might say

0:07:52.140,0:07:56.500
that it's virtually untenable to say that "There are those famous

0:07:56.500,0:07:57.820
words of Virginia Woolf,

0:07:57.840,0:08:00.120
which we made, somewhat provocatively,

0:08:00.120,0:08:02.140
the motto of our conference.

0:08:02.160,0:08:05.700
" I'm referring, of course, to Virginia Woolf's essay on

0:08:05.700,0:08:06.360
illness,

0:08:06.380,0:08:08.800
in which Woolf wrote

0:08:08.820,0:08:10.240
that it's puzzling

0:08:10.340,0:08:14.540
that illness hasn't been narrated on

0:08:14.540,0:08:15.060
the scale

0:08:15.060,0:08:18.200
of other major literary themes.

0:08:18.280,0:08:22.340
This is, of course, quite an inspiring statement, and I think

0:08:22.340,0:08:24.580
it encourages polemics

0:08:24.650,0:08:25.670
for those

0:08:25.730,0:08:28.390
interested in maladic discourse,

0:08:28.410,0:08:31.710
all genres related to illness writing,

0:08:31.710,0:08:34.350
but at the same time, it's a statement

0:08:34.350,0:08:36.270
that, at the time

0:08:36.309,0:08:37.230
it was made,

0:08:37.230,0:08:39.530
was already untenable.

0:08:39.549,0:08:42.190
However, one might indeed wonder

0:08:42.190,0:08:48.010
to what extent this extraordinary expansion of

0:08:48.010,0:08:48.730
disease narratives,

0:08:48.730,0:08:51.780
narratives such as pathographies,

0:08:51.840,0:08:53.200
autopathographies,

0:08:53.220,0:08:54.840
or, for example, variants

0:08:54.840,0:08:56.640
such as cancer narratives,

0:08:56.660,0:08:59.940
how many examples of this type of narrative can we find in

0:08:59.940,0:09:03.360
the contemporary literary field.

0:09:03.640,0:09:04.920
This clearly shows

0:09:05.000,0:09:08.060
that we may be dealing here with a kind of

0:09:08.060,0:09:12.320
maladic turn in the humanities.

0:09:12.360,0:09:15.920
The point, of course, is what has been discussed many times,

0:09:15.920,0:09:18.240
and has been very well described,

0:09:18.280,0:09:19.740
the concept of the turn.

0:09:19.760,0:09:21.960
While it is very useful,

0:09:22.020,0:09:25.200
it also always raises the

0:09:25.200,0:09:27.920
danger of a certain abuse or

0:09:27.920,0:09:29.120
terminological fashion.

0:09:29.440,0:09:30.240
Nevertheless,

0:09:30.320,0:09:34.180
if we look at the expansion of these

0:09:34.180,0:09:35.460
texts and

0:09:35.500,0:09:38.500
the various research areas they occupy

0:09:38.500,0:09:40.880
and how these areas are reconfigured,

0:09:41.000,0:09:43.800
allowing for the asking of ever new research questions,

0:09:43.920,0:09:44.740
it seems to me

0:09:44.800,0:09:48.740
that talking about this maladic turn is currently

0:09:49.080,0:09:49.780
very,

0:09:49.780,0:09:51.800
very valid and very necessary.

0:09:52.980,0:09:54.320
One of the first researchers

0:09:54.380,0:09:55.980
to talk about,

0:09:55.980,0:09:59.740
to think about, the maladic discourse in terms of the turn

0:09:59.740,0:10:00.240
was,

0:10:00.280,0:10:01.200
if I remember correctly,

0:10:01.260,0:10:02.020
Monika Ładoń,

0:10:02.020,0:10:05.760
right?
In her book "Illness as Literature."

0:10:05.960,0:10:10.120
And you cited Virginia Woolf in your statement,

0:10:10.140,0:10:13.120
and Ładoń, in turn, begins her narrative of

0:10:13.120,0:10:15.820
the maladic turn with a discussion of Susan

0:10:15.820,0:10:16.860
Zontag,

0:10:17.000,0:10:17.500
right?

0:10:18.620,0:10:21.300
Which side are you on as researchers?

0:10:21.300,0:10:22.560
The metaphorical one,

0:10:22.560,0:10:25.620
or a more realistic

0:10:25.620,0:10:26.600
approach

0:10:26.600,0:10:31.080
, some kind of balance between

0:10:31.080,0:10:31.880
medical

0:10:31.900,0:10:35.000
discourse and this narrative of illness,

0:10:35.040,0:10:37.160
focused on the subject,

0:10:37.160,0:10:38.700
on the sick self?

0:10:39.900,0:10:42.100
Your question seems very valid to me here,

0:10:42.120,0:10:43.040
but I wonder

0:10:43.140,0:10:45.640
if it couldn't be simply centered somehow

0:10:45.640,0:10:46.480
.

0:10:46.560,0:10:48.700
However, in these maladaptive texts

0:10:48.700,0:10:50.800
emerging in contemporary literature,

0:10:50.800,0:10:53.000
which seems to be trying to move away from

0:10:53.000,0:10:56.120
metaphorization and focus more on this

0:10:56.120,0:10:58.700
direct description of the experience of illness,

0:10:58.760,0:11:01.360
on showing this experience as

0:11:01.480,0:11:03.040
it really is,

0:11:03.120,0:11:07.270
various metaphorical formulations still appear

0:11:07.350,0:11:10.190
that in some way describe these experiences.

0:11:10.290,0:11:11.390
For example, the metaphor,

0:11:11.410,0:11:12.210
if I remember correctly,

0:11:12.210,0:11:16.530
appearing in Aneta Żuchowska's "Miech" about

0:11:16.530,0:11:17.450
a spaceship journey,

0:11:17.490,0:11:22.550
which Maria Świątkowska brilliantly analyzed in

0:11:22.550,0:11:23.750
one of her texts,

0:11:23.850,0:11:25.390
it seems to me

0:11:25.450,0:11:27.350
that such a categorical departure from this is simply

0:11:27.350,0:11:28.010
impossible.

0:11:28.150,0:11:30.270
But a perspective is emerging again,

0:11:30.330,0:11:33.640
moving away from presenting the

0:11:33.640,0:11:37.240
experience of illness in a

0:11:37.240,0:11:38.080
romanticized way,

0:11:38.080,0:11:38.400
I think.

0:11:38.400,0:11:41.400
It's more about showing and also redefining

0:11:41.400,0:11:42.080
what

0:11:42.200,0:11:43.700
being ill looks like,

0:11:43.760,0:11:47.920
which, again, referring to meat, can be

0:11:47.920,0:11:48.440
viewed as

0:11:48.440,0:11:51.440
meaning that being ill isn't so beautiful, and as contemporary

0:11:51.440,0:11:53.500
medicine is trying to portray it

0:11:53.500,0:11:53.960
,

0:11:53.960,0:11:55.760
I think
there's also this process of moving away

0:11:56.220,0:11:58.680
from this beautiful death in the hospital,

0:11:58.680,0:12:00.260
where everything is always clean,

0:12:00.340,0:12:02.520
beautiful, and pretty,

0:12:02.540,0:12:05.000
but this illness is filled with pain and

0:12:05.000,0:12:05.640
suffering.

0:12:06.630,0:12:08.930
Let me add,

0:12:08.930,0:12:11.570
because I completely agree with Wiktoria,

0:12:11.590,0:12:15.270
that when we talk about this classic,

0:12:15.270,0:12:18.910
canonical text by Susan Sontag,

0:12:18.950,0:12:20.810
it is indeed one of the first

0:12:20.810,0:12:21.410
texts

0:12:21.430,0:12:25.170
encountered by those interested in

0:12:25.170,0:12:29.270
maladic discourse or representations of illness in

0:12:29.270,0:12:31.450
literature or various cultural texts.

0:12:31.470,0:12:32.670
And indeed, it is a text

0:12:32.670,0:12:36.010
that is already becoming very popular.

0:12:36.110,0:12:38.290
commentaries, and often also critical ones,

0:12:38.310,0:12:42.930
actually from the moment of translation into Polish,

0:12:42.930,0:12:43.770
or even earlier,

0:12:43.790,0:12:46.130
when only fragments were translated,

0:12:46.150,0:12:49.950
voices appeared in such research polemics

0:12:49.950,0:12:50.730
.

0:12:51.390,0:12:54.170
Is this position not too

0:12:54.170,0:12:55.230
radical,

0:12:55.310,0:12:58.910
or is it not actually demanding rejection?

0:12:58.910,0:13:01.010
Any metaphors of illness,

0:13:01.090,0:13:02.910
opposing interpretation,

0:13:03.010,0:13:04.310
saying

0:13:04.310,0:13:08.150
that illness is illness and this is the healthiest way

0:13:08.150,0:13:09.070
to be ill,

0:13:09.170,0:13:09.670
recognizing

0:13:09.670,0:13:11.150
that this is so,

0:13:11.250,0:13:13.870
isn't this going too far,

0:13:13.870,0:13:17.350
isn't this depriving patients

0:13:17.350,0:13:20.310
of the opportunity to articulate their experience and,

0:13:20.310,0:13:23.780
through metaphors, build a certain community of

0:13:23.780,0:13:25.620
experience with other patients?

0:13:25.660,0:13:26.760
This is indeed a topic

0:13:26.760,0:13:28.300
that has been frequently raised.

0:13:28.380,0:13:29.120
If

0:13:29.200,0:13:32.860
we reject certain metaphors,

0:13:33.020,0:13:35.800
won't we then condemn ourselves to

0:13:35.980,0:13:39.600
a medical profession,

0:13:39.700,0:13:42.440
which for many people is very off-putting,

0:13:42.520,0:13:46.620
terrifying, and actually prevents them from coming to terms

0:13:46.620,0:13:49.480
with their experience of illness?

0:13:49.900,0:13:52.880
Of course, there are other

0:13:52.880,0:13:53.600
related issues here,

0:13:53.700,0:13:57.620
when the researcher herself, in her next essay,

0:13:57.680,0:13:59.060
"AIDS and Its Metaphors,"

0:13:59.060,0:14:02.620
10 years after the emergence of illness as metaphor, clearly

0:14:02.620,0:14:04.120
softened her stance,

0:14:04.180,0:14:04.660
saying

0:14:04.660,0:14:08.260
that in her interpretation, she had focused on

0:14:08.260,0:14:11.800
the Aristotelian understanding of metaphor

0:14:11.800,0:14:13.120
as a literary,

0:14:13.120,0:14:15.760
or stylistic, figure,

0:14:15.760,0:14:17.200
and did not refer to these

0:14:17.200,0:14:18.920
20th-century studies.

0:14:19.120,0:14:20.040
By metaphor,

0:14:20.040,0:14:22.760
I mean, of course , Lake and Johnson's

0:14:22.760,0:14:24.400
book Metaphors in

0:14:24.400,0:14:25.960
Our Lives ,

0:14:25.960,0:14:28.560
where metaphor essentially becomes a way of

0:14:28.560,0:14:30.600
thinking,

0:14:30.600,0:14:31.220
acting,

0:14:31.820,0:14:32.400
and speaking.

0:14:33.060,0:14:33.660
Indeed,

0:14:33.660,0:14:35.540
it's hard to deny

0:14:35.540,0:14:38.440
or even deny Susan Zontag's point here

0:14:38.640,0:14:41.580
when she explained her position,

0:14:41.660,0:14:42.740
saying

0:14:42.740,0:14:44.280
that metaphorizing—

0:14:44.280,0:14:47.800
that certain metaphors of illness are in some way morally

0:14:47.800,0:14:49.840
reprehensible and greatly burden the sick person—

0:14:49.880,0:14:53.460
but at the same time, it's impossible to completely

0:14:53.460,0:14:54.180
free oneself from metaphor.

0:14:54.220,0:14:54.580
And I think

0:14:54.580,0:14:56.960
we can find many such

0:14:56.960,0:14:57.680
examples here,

0:14:57.680,0:15:00.120
where these metaphors of illness

0:15:00.440,0:15:01.520
are particularly condemnable,

0:15:01.580,0:15:04.640
referring to military discourse.

0:15:04.860,0:15:08.260
On the other hand, we can find narratives,

0:15:08.260,0:15:11.340
such as those pointed out by Małgorzata Okupnik in her

0:15:11.340,0:15:15.680
book about the experience of losing health,

0:15:15.780,0:15:20.140
in which sick people nevertheless very consciously utilize

0:15:20.140,0:15:23.000
this metaphor, placing themselves

0:15:23.000,0:15:27.320
in the position of a soldier

0:15:27.360,0:15:29.420
who fights,

0:15:29.920,0:15:33.520
using various types of weapons,

0:15:33.540,0:15:36.420
with strategists at their side,

0:15:36.420,0:15:37.360
i.e., doctors,

0:15:37.360,0:15:39.220
but also the brave resistance movement,

0:15:39.260,0:15:41.760
i.e., supporters in illness

0:15:41.780,0:15:46.400
who help lead this fight.

0:15:46.420,0:15:46.940
We see

0:15:47.000,0:15:49.780
that these types of metaphors also prove

0:15:49.780,0:15:52.920
effective and useful in some way.

0:15:52.940,0:15:57.180
However, the issue of such a critical approach

0:15:57.180,0:15:59.140
to Susan's text

0:15:59.280,0:15:59.640
,

0:15:59.640,0:16:04.400
which increasingly appears in new

0:16:04.400,0:16:08.580
books on maladic issues, is

0:16:08.580,0:16:10.760
very apparent, as exemplified by

0:16:10.760,0:16:15.860
Beata Koper's recent book on post-1989

0:16:15.860,0:16:18.280
maladic discourse .

0:16:18.340,0:16:21.460
In this book, the scholar devotes an entire chapter

0:16:21.460,0:16:25.080
to the reception of critical illness as a metaphor.

0:16:25.080,0:16:26.300
I mention this because

0:16:26.480,0:16:29.210
she is also one of the authors

0:16:29.210,0:16:32.470
who published in our issue of Ruch

0:16:32.470,0:16:33.030
Literacki.

0:16:33.570,0:16:36.650
Beata's book is also significant because

0:16:36.650,0:16:41.290
it attempts to interpretively balance

0:16:41.290,0:16:45.420
our frequent research biases

0:16:45.420,0:16:49.520
toward interpreting illness narratives as

0:16:49.520,0:16:52.060
a form of self-therapy, and, on the other hand,

0:16:52.060,0:16:55.240
interpreting illness narratives as

0:16:55.240,0:16:57.160
critical tools, for example,

0:16:57.420,0:16:59.000
towards medicine.

0:16:59.060,0:17:03.820
This, in turn, shifts this maladic narrative toward

0:17:03.820,0:17:05.040
a social dimension,

0:17:05.040,0:17:05.380
doesn't it?

0:17:05.380,0:17:07.700
It makes it, in a sense, a tool

0:17:08.600,0:17:10.819
of social criticism and shows

0:17:10.839,0:17:12.880
that these narratives have a communal,

0:17:12.880,0:17:15.040
social character.

0:17:15.480,0:17:16.680
Illnesses are political.

0:17:16.760,0:17:17.260
What

0:17:17.280,0:17:17.780
I said,

0:17:17.780,0:17:19.460
We can summarize this with a statement like this,

0:17:19.480,0:17:21.880
which also appears in Beata's text,

0:17:21.900,0:17:22.560
in the issue

0:17:22.579,0:17:24.020
you edited.

0:17:24.400,0:17:25.859
And from your perspective,

0:17:25.859,0:17:28.020
what does this political nature consist of,

0:17:28.020,0:17:29.540
how might it be understood?

0:17:30.440,0:17:33.280
And this is indeed a very

0:17:33.280,0:17:34.320
broad topic.

0:17:34.680,0:17:38.240
In her text, Beata Koper analyzed the diaries of

0:17:38.240,0:17:40.000
Audrey Lord and Krystyna Kofta,

0:17:40.000,0:17:42.940
examples of cancerography,

0:17:42.960,0:17:46.400
those cancerography narratives centered around

0:17:46.400,0:17:48.120
the experience of breast cancer.

0:17:48.160,0:17:49.060
And it seems

0:17:49.140,0:17:52.280
that breast cancer is precisely the kind of disease

0:17:52.280,0:17:55.420
in which this political nature is particularly visible.

0:17:56.120,0:17:56.820
First of all,

0:17:56.820,0:18:00.640
if we consider the deeply entrenched

0:18:00.640,0:18:04.060
cultural understanding of breast cancer,

0:18:04.060,0:18:06.900
also associated with the fetishization of women's breasts

0:18:06.900,0:18:10.380
as symbols of femininity and

0:18:10.380,0:18:11.900
motherhood.

0:18:12.100,0:18:12.860
Indeed,

0:18:12.860,0:18:17.520
if we invoke certain

0:18:17.520,0:18:18.140
metaphors,

0:18:18.140,0:18:22.200
for example, to remain within the sphere of this issue of breast cancer,

0:18:22.220,0:18:25.340
it is often presented in a very ironic

0:18:25.340,0:18:28.400
way.
It's often called a "sexy disease,"

0:18:28.440,0:18:30.000
which refers to,

0:18:30.100,0:18:33.990
well, the persistent

0:18:33.990,0:18:37.970
definition of female identity through corporeality,

0:18:38.050,0:18:42.330
through reference to maternal functions,

0:18:42.330,0:18:47.190
or even through the care of the body,

0:18:47.330,0:18:49.530
which becomes a kind of cultural capital,

0:18:49.590,0:18:51.150
or is understood as such.

0:18:51.690,0:18:53.590
Hence, it truly seems

0:18:53.650,0:18:57.690
that breast cancer fits very well into these

0:18:57.690,0:18:59.510
political issues,

0:18:59.530,0:19:01.390
because on the one hand, it shows, for example, that

0:19:01.710,0:19:04.410
for a very long time, women were even

0:19:04.410,0:19:05.150
suggested

0:19:05.150,0:19:09.230
that if they had breast reconstruction immediately after a mastectomy

0:19:09.230,0:19:10.890
,

0:19:10.890,0:19:14.410
it would have a positive impact on their well-being.

0:19:14.410,0:19:17.010
So, there was a visible encouragement to

0:19:17.010,0:19:20.610
focus primarily on appearance,

0:19:20.650,0:19:24.210
which could, of course, be linked to

0:19:24.210,0:19:25.270
sociocultural

0:19:25.270,0:19:28.710
constructs such as the beauty myth and the related "

0:19:28.710,0:19:29.330
baklarz" (baklarz),

0:19:29.350,0:19:30.920
especially in relation to breast cancer.

0:19:30.920,0:19:31.720
If I remember correctly

0:19:31.780,0:19:33.880
, a term analogous to "Pinklash"

0:19:33.900,0:19:36.100
appeared at the time,

0:19:36.180,0:19:39.580
referring to the pink ribbon

0:19:39.640,0:19:43.820
that was supposed to signify a campaign for

0:19:43.820,0:19:45.480
breast cancer prevention.

0:19:45.480,0:19:47.680
But at the same time, the question arose

0:19:47.800,0:19:51.460
as to what extent these campaigns actually served this purpose,

0:19:51.540,0:19:54.320
and to what extent they were deeply entangled in

0:19:54.320,0:20:00.040
the interests of various cosmetics corporations, for example

0:20:00.140,0:20:01.400
, profiting from it.

0:20:01.400,0:20:02.020
So it seems

0:20:02.040,0:20:07.220
that here, the political is understood,

0:20:07.220,0:20:10.780
for example, as the possibility of making changes in

0:20:10.780,0:20:13.000
social life.

0:20:13.340,0:20:17.520
It's very

0:20:17.520,0:20:18.100
visible in the case of breast cancer.

0:20:18.600,0:20:20.740
But it's not just that, of course.

0:20:20.800,0:20:24.460
These are also questions about the possibility of introducing

0:20:24.460,0:20:25.260
change,

0:20:25.420,0:20:29.140
about the possibility of redefining such relationships,

0:20:29.350,0:20:30.370
within this field of illness,

0:20:30.370,0:20:33.730
or within the field of various institutions

0:20:33.730,0:20:37.210
connected to the condition of illness.

0:20:37.270,0:20:38.290
So, it seems to me

0:20:38.330,0:20:39.550
that these are also issues

0:20:39.550,0:20:43.410
that should be taken into account, and they appear,

0:20:43.410,0:20:47.750
of course, in many other texts

0:20:47.750,0:20:52.130
that could be classified as pathographic narratives.

0:20:52.490,0:20:57.010
An example of this would be

0:20:57.010,0:20:57.990
Mateusz Pakuła's excellent book,

0:20:58.090,0:21:00.370
"How I Didn't Kill My Father and How Much

0:21:00.370,0:21:00.910
I Regret It,"

0:21:00.990,0:21:03.230
which is essentially a

0:21:03.230,0:21:03.870
confused

0:21:03.870,0:21:06.270
, pathological genre . On the one hand, it's a mourning diary,

0:21:06.310,0:21:10.380
and on the other, it's a story about accompanying someone through

0:21:10.380,0:21:10.780
illness.

0:21:10.780,0:21:15.580
But at the same time, as the author himself declared,

0:21:15.760,0:21:20.060
it was intended to be a voice on the issue of euthanasia.

0:21:20.220,0:21:21.920
So it seems

0:21:21.980,0:21:25.340
that in this context, the political dimension also

0:21:25.340,0:21:26.480
comes into play.

0:21:28.240,0:21:30.040
The people listening don't see me here,

0:21:30.080,0:21:32.460
but I simply

0:21:32.460,0:21:34.160
nod my head in agreement with Asia's every comment and wonder

0:21:34.220,0:21:35.340
what more I could add.

0:21:36.090,0:21:38.130
But perhaps I'll refer to Beata Koper's book.

0:21:39.190,0:21:40.790
Beata Koper points out

0:21:40.930,0:21:43.110
that sick people,

0:21:43.110,0:21:46.690
patients, from the moment of diagnosis are immediately

0:21:46.690,0:21:48.090
,

0:21:48.090,0:21:48.590
one might say,

0:21:48.590,0:21:51.850
inserted into a strictly directed network of relationships.

0:21:52.070,0:21:53.010
And this,

0:21:53.070,0:21:53.570
one might say,

0:21:53.630,0:21:56.050
subordination to the medical system,

0:21:56.150,0:21:57.630
which,

0:21:57.730,0:21:59.290
as Asia Ptoćplom mentioned,

0:21:59.290,0:22:03.010
is brilliantly characterized by Mateusz Pakuła in his

0:22:03.010,0:22:03.350
book,

0:22:03.350,0:22:04.630
revealing the various dimensions

0:22:04.920,0:22:07.600
of this entanglement in the medical system.

0:22:07.640,0:22:10.860
On the one hand, the sick father,

0:22:10.860,0:22:11.920
who is a patient,

0:22:11.920,0:22:14.040
is subject to this entanglement, but on the other, the entire family,

0:22:14.060,0:22:17.060
who accompanies him through this illness and

0:22:17.060,0:22:18.600
is also confronted with this—

0:22:18.680,0:22:22.080
perhaps using Agnieszka Daugrza's term here—

0:22:22.200,0:22:24.120
pathosystemic structure,

0:22:24.200,0:22:27.840
in which doctors,

0:22:27.860,0:22:28.660
nurses,

0:22:28.660,0:22:33.820
and those providing care for the sick are somehow trapped.

0:22:34.800,0:22:35.600
Referring to

0:22:35.640,0:22:38.340
what Asia may have also said about breast cancer,

0:22:38.340,0:22:39.960
that socially,

0:22:39.960,0:22:42.520
and I think also politically,

0:22:42.520,0:22:45.440
certain

0:22:45.440,0:22:46.820
systems

0:22:46.820,0:22:47.380
and perspectives

0:22:47.380,0:22:49.440
are imposed on sick people, regarding how they should behave during illness,

0:22:49.440,0:22:51.380
so that they can seemingly

0:22:51.380,0:22:53.680
be reintegrated into the healthy segment

0:22:53.680,0:22:54.660
of society.

0:22:55.180,0:22:57.960
So in the case of cancer,

0:22:57.980,0:22:59.060
for women

0:22:59.060,0:23:00.040
or men,

0:23:00.040,0:23:03.520
for example, the effects of chemotherapy can be gradually

0:23:03.520,0:23:04.200
masked,

0:23:04.200,0:23:06.740
for example, by wearing a headscarf.

0:23:06.760,0:23:08.580
This is also brilliantly demonstrated,

0:23:08.680,0:23:11.200
again referring to Aneta Szyżkowska,

0:23:11.200,0:23:11.920
where

0:23:12.020,0:23:14.100
she strongly opposes this,

0:23:14.100,0:23:14.580
saying

0:23:14.580,0:23:17.200
that she doesn't want to experience her illness in this way,

0:23:17.320,0:23:19.920
doesn't want to cover up the effects of chemotherapy,

0:23:19.940,0:23:21.780
doesn't want to mask its symptoms.

0:23:22.360,0:23:24.360
Now, perhaps referring to

0:23:24.360,0:23:25.020
narratives

0:23:25.040,0:23:26.660
that are closer to my heart,

0:23:26.680,0:23:30.760
those of dwellings in various

0:23:30.760,0:23:31.980
medical institutions,

0:23:32.040,0:23:35.500
I might refer to

0:23:35.500,0:23:38.000
Barbara Klicka's more fictional text, "Zdrój" (Spa),

0:23:38.060,0:23:42.100
which perfectly depicts a kind of

0:23:42.100,0:23:44.620
microcosm of a closed facility,

0:23:44.620,0:23:45.960
a sanatorium,

0:23:46.160,0:23:50.300
housing people with various

0:23:50.300,0:23:51.220
ailments.

0:23:52.090,0:23:54.410
In my opinion, Klicka brilliantly illustrates the

0:23:54.490,0:23:57.190
degree to which illness is subject to politics,

0:23:57.250,0:24:00.290
the degree to which patients are subject to hierarchy.

0:24:00.350,0:24:02.970
The more severe the ailment,

0:24:02.990,0:24:03.490
one might say,

0:24:04.200,0:24:07.140
in Klicka's image,

0:24:07.220,0:24:09.160
the higher one simply stands in that hierarchy.

0:24:09.180,0:24:11.660
The more one exudes one's illness and

0:24:11.660,0:24:13.740
conforms to what

0:24:13.880,0:24:14.600
one might call

0:24:14.700,0:24:16.420
social notions of illness,

0:24:16.560,0:24:17.660
of dignified,

0:24:17.660,0:24:18.180
clean, and

0:24:18.200,0:24:19.060
good illness,

0:24:19.140,0:24:22.540
the higher

0:24:22.540,0:24:23.120
the hierarchy within that sanatorium.

0:24:23.160,0:24:24.420
And the heroine,

0:24:24.420,0:24:25.980
the narrator of Klicka's novel,

0:24:25.980,0:24:26.800
opposing this,

0:24:26.920,0:24:29.800
unable to find

0:24:29.800,0:24:32.300
a place for herself in this entire enclosed microcosm,

0:24:32.620,0:24:33.380
is,

0:24:33.520,0:24:34.100
one might say,

0:24:34.220,0:24:37.600
condemned to a kind of banishment by the

0:24:37.600,0:24:38.240
Racjuszki company.

0:24:38.300,0:24:40.920
So this political nature will manifest itself not only in such systems,

0:24:40.920,0:24:41.380
I think,

0:24:41.380,0:24:44.340
the social imposition of this image of being ill

0:24:44.340,0:24:46.340
,

0:24:46.360,0:24:49.240
but also in inter-societal relations.

0:24:50.900,0:24:52.620
In the context of

0:24:52.700,0:24:53.600
what you mentioned,

0:24:53.600,0:24:57.580
the story is a form of transcending the system,

0:24:57.660,0:24:58.020
right?

0:24:58.020,0:24:59.960
A form of emancipation,

0:24:59.960,0:25:01.460
this process of writing a story,

0:25:01.460,0:25:03.180
of recording experiences.

0:25:03.180,0:25:06.180
Here, of course, I'm thinking more about

0:25:06.180,0:25:06.920
non-fiction,

0:25:06.920,0:25:08.440
more of a personal document,

0:25:08.440,0:25:09.960
which is a documentation

0:25:11.510,0:25:13.650
of being ill, written by a specific person,

0:25:13.670,0:25:14.170
by a sub-biota

0:25:14.210,0:25:16.350
that we can get to know and

0:25:16.350,0:25:17.210
identify.

0:25:17.530,0:25:18.090
What

0:25:18.170,0:25:21.050
also seems interesting to me in this approach

0:25:21.050,0:25:21.730
to the story,

0:25:21.730,0:25:23.390
as precisely such a critical strategy,

0:25:23.390,0:25:24.190
transcending the system,

0:25:24.370,0:25:26.010
A kind of emancipation,

0:25:26.110,0:25:27.590
this

0:25:27.690,0:25:28.510
is the moment

0:25:28.590,0:25:30.390
when a sick person,

0:25:30.450,0:25:32.010
writing down their experience,

0:25:32.090,0:25:33.970
decides to make it public,

0:25:33.970,0:25:35.930
which in itself is of course also a

0:25:35.930,0:25:36.470
political gesture,

0:25:36.490,0:25:36.810
right?

0:25:36.810,0:25:38.370
It's a way of reaching out to

0:25:38.410,0:25:41.210
the social through simply sharing

0:25:41.210,0:25:42.650
this narrative.

0:25:42.750,0:25:43.550
And

0:25:43.630,0:25:47.230
what interests me, and what you've surely

0:25:47.230,0:25:48.330
come across in your reading and research,

0:25:48.390,0:25:48.890
is

0:25:48.950,0:25:50.350
why people write,

0:25:50.370,0:25:51.410
why authors,

0:25:51.410,0:25:53.250
authors of merical narratives write.

0:25:55.890,0:25:57.720
Perhaps with an example,

0:25:57.720,0:26:00.300
because that's the easiest way for me to illustrate it.

0:26:00.300,0:26:01.540
And I'll refer again,

0:26:01.540,0:26:02.860
I think,
to Mateusz Pakuła.

0:26:03.180,0:26:04.340
His book

0:26:04.340,0:26:06.060
How I Didn't Kill My Father and How Much

0:26:06.060,0:26:06.560
I Regret It.

0:26:06.600,0:26:11.260
Because the author repeatedly commented on his decision to publish it, both in the text itself and in subsequent

0:26:11.260,0:26:13.120
interviews and

0:26:13.120,0:26:17.020
conversations

0:26:17.020,0:26:17.640
.

0:26:17.960,0:26:19.240
Pakuła emphasized

0:26:19.280,0:26:21.460
that initially, his notes were intended to be

0:26:21.460,0:26:24.540
a form of self-therapeutic process,

0:26:24.810,0:26:27.630
one that was meant to help him simply process and

0:26:27.630,0:26:28.330
understand what

0:26:28.430,0:26:31.870
was happening around him and within himself.

0:26:32.710,0:26:35.670
His mother then asked him to write a eulogy

0:26:35.670,0:26:36.670
for his father.

0:26:36.670,0:26:41.750
Under the pressure of emotions and experiences related to

0:26:41.750,0:26:43.370
his father's illness and

0:26:43.370,0:26:44.870
the medical system,

0:26:44.870,0:26:47.670
it began to grow uncontrollably,

0:26:47.690,0:26:50.370
quickly ceasing to be simply a text

0:26:50.410,0:26:52.710
to be delivered at the funeral.

0:26:53.610,0:26:55.870
For Pakuła, the decision to publish his notes

0:26:55.870,0:26:57.810
also
became , I believe,

0:26:57.910,0:27:01.250
a way of making sense of his father's existence, marked by suffering and

0:27:01.250,0:27:03.810
pain, confronted with his

0:27:03.810,0:27:08.190
helplessness in the face of the healthcare system and

0:27:08.190,0:27:10.690
Polish law, and here the issue

0:27:10.690,0:27:11.290
of euthanasia has already been raised.

0:27:12.090,0:27:14.770
And it was precisely this euthanasia that became the trigger,

0:27:14.790,0:27:16.410
as you just mentioned,

0:27:16.450,0:27:19.550
for such a confrontation with social expectations

0:27:20.030,0:27:21.210
and , I believe, a

0:27:21.250,0:27:22.070
very broad discussion

0:27:22.090,0:27:24.370
on the legality of euthanasia in Poland.

0:27:24.650,0:27:25.390
It seems to me

0:27:25.430,0:27:27.850
that Pakuła's book also received considerable publicity

0:27:27.850,0:27:29.550
for the play

0:27:29.570,0:27:32.410
he directed, and yet it reaches,

0:27:32.410,0:27:33.190
one might say,

0:27:33.290,0:27:35.130
a wider audience—

0:27:35.130,0:27:37.090
not just readers

0:27:37.110,0:27:40.310
but also theatergoers.

0:27:40.370,0:27:44.970
This play was broadcast, I think, in December

0:27:44.970,0:27:46.390
by Polish Television,

0:27:46.410,0:27:49.210
making it generally accessible to everyone.

0:27:50.760,0:27:55.200
I completely agree with Wiktoria, and

0:27:55.200,0:27:57.400
it truly seems to me

0:27:57.460,0:28:01.560
that Pakuła's book exemplifies

0:28:01.560,0:28:02.940
the problem of

0:28:02.940,0:28:06.320
why these narratives are published,

0:28:06.440,0:28:10.200
why some of these narratives are published.

0:28:10.420,0:28:11.200
It seems to me

0:28:11.240,0:28:16.080
that a crucial issue here is also the attempt

0:28:16.080,0:28:20.280
to build or create an empathetic,

0:28:20.360,0:28:25.420
perhaps affective, community between the writers and

0:28:25.420,0:28:26.600
the audience,

0:28:26.660,0:28:29.700
among whom there may, of course, be people facing

0:28:29.700,0:28:31.920
a similar situation,

0:28:31.960,0:28:34.820
with a similar experience of illness,

0:28:34.880,0:28:36.820
but certainly not only.

0:28:37.040,0:28:38.120
So, it seems to me,

0:28:38.490,0:28:42.250
this is also very important here.

0:28:42.390,0:28:44.570
Moreover, I must say,

0:28:44.790,0:28:47.110
referring in turn to the narrative,

0:28:47.110,0:28:51.030
that it is a pathographic narrative,

0:28:51.030,0:28:54.090
albeit in a somewhat broader sense.

0:28:54.130,0:28:54.630
That is,

0:28:54.630,0:28:56.850
it's not just a narrative about illness,

0:28:56.890,0:28:58.390
but also a narrative of mourning.

0:28:58.490,0:29:00.630
In fact, this is a very close way

0:29:00.630,0:29:04.170
of thinking about pathographic narratives.

0:29:04.210,0:29:08.010
If the very name "pathography" derives from

0:29:08.010,0:29:10.510
the Greek word "suffering" and "to describe,"

0:29:10.590,0:29:11.630
then these are narratives

0:29:11.630,0:29:14.590
that in some way attempt to articulate the

0:29:14.590,0:29:16.430
experience of suffering,

0:29:16.590,0:29:19.630
which can of course be understood here as

0:29:19.630,0:29:20.730
illness,

0:29:20.750,0:29:21.930
as being touched

0:29:21.930,0:29:26.870
by one's own illness or the illness of loved ones

0:29:26.890,0:29:29.050
. But at the same time,

0:29:29.050,0:29:32.930
a broadly understood component of loss very often appears in these narratives.

0:29:32.930,0:29:34.430
or mourning.

0:29:34.490,0:29:35.290
And this is not only because

0:29:35.390,0:29:39.070
mourning after the death of someone who,

0:29:39.070,0:29:44.650
for example, struggled with a chronic illness

0:29:44.650,0:29:45.010
is

0:29:45.010,0:29:47.830
a very common element of these

0:29:47.830,0:29:51.330
pathographic narratives, as exemplified by

0:29:51.330,0:29:53.210
Mateusz Pakuła,

0:29:53.290,0:29:57.390
but this loss can also be understood as the loss of

0:29:57.390,0:29:59.610
a previous way of life,

0:29:59.790,0:30:03.470
ability, or opportunity.

0:30:03.550,0:30:04.670
It seems

0:30:04.730,0:30:07.860
that this focus on coping

0:30:07.860,0:30:11.560
with one's own grief or loss in

0:30:11.560,0:30:16.280
pathographic narratives is also very important, and

0:30:16.280,0:30:21.120
the increasing number of such publications in

0:30:21.120,0:30:24.280
contemporary literature is very significant.

0:30:24.560,0:30:28.960
An example of such a narrative is Justyna Wicenta's quasi

0:30:28.960,0:30:32.140
-diary book, "

0:30:32.240,0:30:33.460
Lullaby with a Hurricane,"

0:30:33.500,0:30:37.820
in which the author describes her traumatic

0:30:37.820,0:30:40.940
experience related to the sudden death

0:30:40.940,0:30:43.340
of her several-month-old son.

0:30:43.380,0:30:47.800
At the same time, it is a record of both mourning and

0:30:47.800,0:30:52.860
attempts to cope with this experience of mourning,

0:30:53.000,0:30:55.540
which somehow eludes any

0:30:55.540,0:30:57.940
paradigms or patterns,

0:30:58.040,0:31:03.120
but at the same time, it is also a record of the suffering

0:31:03.120,0:31:05.320
caused by loss.

0:31:05.840,0:31:07.160
and

0:31:07.180,0:31:11.400
how this loss affects the body,

0:31:11.480,0:31:13.860
for example, through pharmacotherapy,

0:31:13.920,0:31:17.280
which the author also describes in great detail.

0:31:17.400,0:31:20.920
At the same time, she also clearly emphasizes

0:31:20.920,0:31:25.980
the self-therapeutic dimension of writing in this publication.

0:31:26.020,0:31:27.360
This means

0:31:27.460,0:31:28.860
that she essentially wants

0:31:29.000,0:31:32.560
this book to be a testament to the presence of the deceased

0:31:32.560,0:31:33.720
child in her life,

0:31:33.780,0:31:39.670
but also that her daughter would never have had to face one with

0:31:39.670,0:31:40.170
such

0:31:40.220,0:31:44.020
a transgenerational message of trauma

0:31:44.020,0:31:47.220
if such a veil of silence had been placed over this death

0:31:47.220,0:31:48.560
.

0:31:48.760,0:31:49.460
But

0:31:49.560,0:31:50.700
what's also striking

0:31:50.700,0:31:51.060
is

0:31:51.060,0:31:55.320
that the lullaby with the hurricane ends with a recommendation

0:31:55.320,0:31:56.640
for institutions

0:31:56.680,0:32:00.920
that parents coping with

0:32:00.920,0:32:03.600
the grief of losing a child can turn to.

0:32:03.660,0:32:06.640
So, one can clearly see this

0:32:06.640,0:32:07.360
orientation here.

0:32:07.660,0:32:12.260
On the one hand, building such a community in a—

0:32:12.260,0:32:14.240
I

0:32:14.240,0:32:16.420
don't want to use the word "how-to"—dimension,

0:32:16.500,0:32:18.500
but in a way that suggests

0:32:18.520,0:32:21.000
where to seek help,

0:32:21.000,0:32:22.600
where to seek support.

0:32:24.700,0:32:26.720
If I may add something here,

0:32:26.780,0:32:27.600
it seems to me that

0:32:27.660,0:32:28.660
what Asia was talking about just now

0:32:28.680,0:32:32.180
is a "how-to" ending to the lullaby with

0:32:32.180,0:32:32.680
the hurricane.

0:32:33.230,0:32:36.650
Not only can you find it in this narrative,

0:32:36.710,0:32:38.510
but if I remember correctly,

0:32:38.510,0:32:42.130
Karolina Wiktor, at the end of "Wołga przez Afazja,

0:32:42.210,0:32:43.850
Wołgą przez Afazja,"

0:32:43.950,0:32:48.130
also offers a quasi-how-to guide

0:32:48.370,0:32:53.090
on how to cope with

0:32:53.090,0:32:54.030
the experience of aphasia in certain social situations.

0:32:54.110,0:32:56.790
But I think
Klaudia could have

0:32:56.790,0:32:57.830
said the most about it here.

0:32:58.190,0:33:00.250
Aphasia is on my mind right now,

0:33:00.430,0:33:01.830
but I'll let you finish.

0:33:03.120,0:33:04.800
It simply occurred to me

0:33:04.820,0:33:06.640
how Asia said

0:33:06.660,0:33:07.820
that this isn't just one book,

0:33:07.820,0:33:11.440
that it's an autobiographical account

0:33:11.440,0:33:12.500
of her own experiences,

0:33:12.500,0:33:15.560
but also an attempt to build a certain community,

0:33:15.560,0:33:16.220
to show

0:33:16.220,0:33:19.080
that you're not alone in this experience,

0:33:19.080,0:33:22.940
that you can simply seek support.

0:33:23.700,0:33:25.000
In the context of the aphasia

0:33:25.080,0:33:26.240
you mentioned,

0:33:26.280,0:33:30.260
writing can also be thought of simply as an

0:33:30.260,0:33:31.000
act.

0:33:32.030,0:33:33.110
engaging the body,

0:33:33.210,0:33:34.970
which in the process of illness,

0:33:35.030,0:33:36.030
this act,

0:33:36.130,0:33:39.070
which in the process of illness can also help,

0:33:39.070,0:33:41.890
because, for example, patients experiencing aphasia,

0:33:41.930,0:33:43.370
in a state of aphasia,

0:33:43.430,0:33:47.230
are often asked during the therapy process to write,

0:33:47.270,0:33:51.290
to take notes. This is not only a type of therapy

0:33:51.310,0:33:54.550
that is supposed to help with re-settling

0:33:54.610,0:33:55.250
into this new,

0:33:55.250,0:33:56.630
post-aphasia world,

0:33:56.630,0:33:57.270
regaining

0:33:58.180,0:33:59.740
one's identity, and so on,

0:33:59.820,0:34:02.020
but also helps regain the use of one's hand,

0:34:02.060,0:34:03.160
right?
Through writing,

0:34:03.160,0:34:05.420
through performing some activity.

0:34:05.760,0:34:07.740
So this is also

0:34:07.800,0:34:08.679
an important thread in the context of

0:34:08.679,0:34:09.620
what we were talking about ,

0:34:09.620,0:34:09.960
isn't it?

0:34:09.960,0:34:12.340
Another aspect of writing, drawing attention to

0:34:12.340,0:34:16.060
the physical aspect of the creative process.

0:34:16.760,0:34:19.060
But illnesses can be told not only

0:34:19.060,0:34:21.460
through words, and not only through

0:34:21.460,0:34:23.100
tools like writing,

0:34:23.139,0:34:24.219
literature,

0:34:24.260,0:34:25.600
or narratives;

0:34:25.620,0:34:29.540
other tools are also used in contemporary culture

0:34:29.540,0:34:30.679
.

0:34:30.780,0:34:32.100
Which ones have you encountered?

0:34:32.100,0:34:33.580
Which ones interested you?

0:34:33.600,0:34:34.840
Did you find them interesting?

0:34:36.960,0:34:38.280
In fact, I think

0:34:38.320,0:34:40.100
this might be a good moment

0:34:40.159,0:34:42.420
to refer a bit to the texts

0:34:42.440,0:34:47.300
included in the issue of

0:34:47.300,0:34:48.199
the Literary Movement we edited,

0:34:48.280,0:34:49.080
because indeed,

0:34:49.100,0:34:49.860
as I said,

0:34:49.900,0:34:52.020
these texts were very diverse.

0:34:52.600,0:34:56.679
Therefore, we were looking for a concept

0:34:56.719,0:34:58.700
broad enough

0:34:58.760,0:35:00.720
to allow us

0:35:00.720,0:35:01.520
to focus these texts in some way.

0:35:01.700,0:35:04.760
And here, the title was conceived by Iwona

0:35:04.760,0:35:05.620
Boruszkowska,

0:35:05.670,0:35:10.230
who proposed the concept of figure,

0:35:10.230,0:35:11.790
and also ontology.

0:35:11.830,0:35:12.290
It seems

0:35:12.290,0:35:14.170
that this very concept of figure,

0:35:14.190,0:35:16.550
if we were to look at its definition,

0:35:16.650,0:35:21.160
would be a good one here. On the one hand, figure

0:35:21.160,0:35:23.560
refers to the shape of a figure,

0:35:23.580,0:35:24.740
to the shape of the body,

0:35:24.900,0:35:26.180
but it also refers

0:35:26.340,0:35:28.620
to whether it can refer, for example, to a set of movements,

0:35:28.620,0:35:30.000
for example in dance,

0:35:30.120,0:35:34.660
or to such linguistic

0:35:34.660,0:35:35.520
imagery.

0:35:35.720,0:35:36.620
And it seems

0:35:36.760,0:35:42.560
that this resonated perfectly in the issue we edited

0:35:42.560,0:35:46.080
thanks to the authors and text writers

0:35:46.120,0:35:47.560
who contributed to it.

0:35:48.040,0:35:51.740
Suffice it to mention

0:35:51.740,0:35:54.300
Michał Rymaszewski's very interesting text on the typographic

0:35:54.300,0:35:56.420
representation of illness,

0:35:56.440,0:36:00.240
in which the author analyzed typographical devices

0:36:00.240,0:36:03.720
used in poetic projects to

0:36:03.780,0:36:07.240
demonstrate possible ways of creating or

0:36:07.240,0:36:09.580
representing mental illness.

0:36:09.660,0:36:13.040
Another extremely interesting example

0:36:13.040,0:36:16.580
that would refer to these texts extending

0:36:16.580,0:36:20.760
beyond the realm of literature would be Alicja Miller's article

0:36:20.760,0:36:24.800
on choreographing disability,

0:36:24.820,0:36:29.020
in which the researcher focused on strategies

0:36:29.020,0:36:34.560
for choreographing alternative motor skills of women with

0:36:34.560,0:36:35.780
disabilities.

0:36:36.020,0:36:39.480
Another such tool,

0:36:39.480,0:36:43.280
or medium for telling stories about illness, also seems

0:36:44.000,0:36:46.600
very interesting.

0:36:46.600,0:36:49.080
This was photography,

0:36:49.080,0:36:53.260
as Agata Andrzejewska writes in her article

0:36:53.260,0:36:56.720
on literary-photographic narrative,

0:36:56.720,0:37:00.340
again specifically about breast cancer in Annie Erno's book.

0:37:00.440,0:37:04.980
She demonstrates the importance of this dual

0:37:04.980,0:37:05.640
project:

0:37:05.640,0:37:06.960
literary on the one hand,

0:37:06.960,0:37:09.260
and photographic on the other,

0:37:09.280,0:37:09.980
which creates,

0:37:10.020,0:37:13.840
which constitutes, a particular kind

0:37:13.840,0:37:15.960
of cancerography,

0:37:15.980,0:37:17.820
in which photography

0:37:17.820,0:37:19.540
is a crucial medium .

0:37:19.580,0:37:20.500
It seems, therefore,

0:37:20.560,0:37:23.320
that these examples could be multiplied,

0:37:23.360,0:37:27.320
because certainly if we were to turn to

0:37:27.320,0:37:31.060
feature films or documentary films,

0:37:31.160,0:37:34.240
we could also point to numerous examples

0:37:34.240,0:37:37.900
of such extra-literary pathographic narratives.

0:37:38.080,0:37:39.740
Nevertheless, I am very pleased

0:37:39.760,0:37:43.410
that this issue of the literary movement, edited by us

0:37:43.410,0:37:46.670
, not only concerned literature

0:37:46.690,0:37:49.710
but significantly broadened the perspective,

0:37:49.750,0:37:50.390
demonstrating

0:37:50.390,0:37:55.910
that this interest in illness encompasses various

0:37:55.910,0:37:59.050
cultural texts and can lead to very

0:37:59.050,0:38:01.530
interesting analyses,

0:38:01.530,0:38:02.550
conclusions, and

0:38:02.940,0:38:04.100
research prospectuses.

0:38:04.460,0:38:06.920
This approach also draws attention to the

0:38:06.980,0:38:09.760
capaciousness of this maladic discourse.

0:38:09.780,0:38:11.540
This is one of its characteristics,

0:38:11.540,0:38:11.900
isn't it?

0:38:11.900,0:38:12.720
It is also said

0:38:12.760,0:38:15.500
to be hospitable.

0:38:16.340,0:38:18.100
I promised at the very beginning of this conversation

0:38:18.140,0:38:21.580
that we would look at this concept of maladic discourse,

0:38:21.600,0:38:23.760
that we would try to unpack it.

0:38:24.650,0:38:27.150
In your opinion, what would be worth starting with is

0:38:27.150,0:38:29.130
pointing out the characteristics of this discourse,

0:38:29.130,0:38:32.590
Or showing how it relates to other

0:38:32.590,0:38:33.570
discourses,

0:38:33.570,0:38:35.450
or other fields of literary thought,

0:38:35.450,0:38:37.630
what's the easiest way to grapple with this concept?

0:38:38.640,0:38:42.140
This is a very difficult question, perhaps due to

0:38:42.140,0:38:46.300
the scope of the concept of maladic discourse,

0:38:46.340,0:38:50.660
which is actually a very broad,

0:38:50.660,0:38:51.820
very capacious concept,

0:38:51.820,0:38:54.060
but also one that points to such essentially

0:38:54.060,0:38:58.440
transdisciplinary connections between various

0:38:58.440,0:38:59.180
fields.

0:38:59.400,0:39:00.400
And it seems

0:39:00.460,0:39:02.860
that this maladic discourse in this form also

0:39:02.860,0:39:05.040
helps reorient

0:39:05.530,0:39:09.850
and rethink this current field of research.

0:39:09.950,0:39:11.850
I certainly think

0:39:11.870,0:39:16.690
it's worthwhile to examine maladic discourse through

0:39:16.690,0:39:20.530
the lens of anthropological and cultural categories,

0:39:20.570,0:39:22.950
related, for example, to the body,

0:39:22.970,0:39:24.770
which becomes a text

0:39:24.830,0:39:26.930
that can be read in illness,

0:39:26.950,0:39:28.770
or to subjectivity

0:39:28.870,0:39:30.650
or identity,

0:39:30.710,0:39:31.210
which can,

0:39:31.250,0:39:33.310
as we've already discussed,

0:39:33.470,0:39:38.740
be subject to such reformulation or reorientation.

0:39:38.820,0:39:39.800
But it seems

0:39:39.880,0:39:43.320
that when it comes to maladic discourse,

0:39:43.380,0:39:45.440
it's not just this

0:39:45.440,0:39:48.340
anthropological and cultural reflection, focused

0:39:48.340,0:39:52.660
on such crucial anthropological categories

0:39:52.660,0:39:55.140
, that's important here,

0:39:55.180,0:39:58.020
but it seems to me

0:39:58.040,0:39:58.940
that the fact

0:39:59.020,0:40:02.940
that maladic discourse also explores

0:40:02.940,0:40:05.500
the field of philosophy, for example,

0:40:05.520,0:40:07.680
by asking about illness

0:40:07.680,0:40:09.720
and experience,

0:40:09.720,0:40:13.340
is also, in my opinion, a very important

0:40:13.340,0:40:18.460
background for pathographic narratives.

0:40:18.660,0:40:20.960
So that's how I would see it.

0:40:21.180,0:40:26.960
And certainly maladic discourse, understood as

0:40:26.960,0:40:28.000
a certain way

0:40:28.170,0:40:32.150
of talking about illness in various disciplines.

0:40:32.210,0:40:33.570
Whether

0:40:33.710,0:40:37.670
it's literary studies,

0:40:37.670,0:40:39.850
cultural anthropology,

0:40:39.890,0:40:41.250
philosophy,

0:40:41.250,0:40:42.010
sociology,

0:40:42.130,0:40:45.670
psychology, or, of course, many others.

0:40:45.830,0:40:50.470
It can also provide critical tools for

0:40:50.470,0:40:54.530
careful reading and examining the phenomenon of

0:40:54.530,0:40:58.450
pathographic narratives or maladic narratives.

0:40:58.490,0:40:59.650
So I think

0:40:59.690,0:41:02.530
it's a very useful,

0:41:02.530,0:41:07.070
though also elusive, perspective.

0:41:07.110,0:41:11.470
It's elusive because of its research scope,

0:41:11.530,0:41:15.450
possibilities, and the multitude of possible perspectives.

0:41:16.400,0:41:17.800
To add something here,

0:41:17.800,0:41:20.560
I think
that in general, within Polish literary

0:41:20.560,0:41:23.780
and cultural studies, this maladic discourse is a

0:41:23.780,0:41:24.600
discipline

0:41:24.720,0:41:27.020
that is, so to speak, only just being constituted,

0:41:27.060,0:41:29.120
its foundations being laid.

0:41:29.160,0:41:31.180
It's only now that I get the impression

0:41:31.180,0:41:33.500
that texts are being translated into Polish

0:41:33.520,0:41:36.740
that were already very

0:41:36.740,0:41:39.580
common in the West

0:41:39.580,0:41:42.020
in the late 1980s and 1990s .

0:41:42.020,0:41:42.760
Here, I think

0:41:42.820,0:41:45.570
the main cradle of all this is the

0:41:45.570,0:41:46.070
United States,

0:41:46.090,0:41:50.470
where Arthur Frank's text and the

0:41:50.470,0:41:51.970
figure of the wounded narrator originated,

0:41:51.970,0:41:56.670
or Rita Sharon and the concept of medical humanities,

0:41:56.730,0:42:00.590
or narrative medicine,

0:42:00.590,0:42:01.110
to be precise.

0:42:01.190,0:42:03.490
And here, too, we mentioned earlier

0:42:03.550,0:42:06.190
that Monika Ładań,

0:42:06.210,0:42:10.210
observing these changes in Polish research,

0:42:10.210,0:42:12.390
uses the term "maladic,"

0:42:12.510,0:42:15.210
though she does so with a certain distance from

0:42:15.210,0:42:15.990
this category,

0:42:16.010,0:42:17.890
emphasizing the lack of

0:42:17.890,0:42:21.370
systematic knowledge within these studies in what

0:42:21.370,0:42:22.650
seems to me to be Polish context.

0:42:23.370,0:42:24.970
In this perspective of the latest publications,

0:42:25.010,0:42:28.150
we can see a kind of crystallization of

0:42:28.150,0:42:29.510
a distinct research field,

0:42:29.510,0:42:32.910
with a somewhat uniform theoretical underpinning and

0:42:32.910,0:42:34.230
a similar methodology.

0:42:34.690,0:42:38.190
And since editing this issue of

0:42:38.190,0:42:38.910
the literary movement

0:42:38.950,0:42:40.810
we're discussing and to which we've already

0:42:40.810,0:42:42.050
referred many times,

0:42:42.190,0:42:47.110
has your thinking about maledic discourse

0:42:47.110,0:42:47.610
changed in any way?

0:42:48.910,0:42:49.750
I think

0:42:49.750,0:42:50.250
so ,

0:42:51.260,0:42:52.120
in the sense

0:42:52.120,0:42:53.820
that it has certainly expanded.

0:42:54.000,0:42:58.420
That is, Wiktoria and I both present

0:42:58.420,0:43:01.760
primarily a literary studies perspective,

0:43:01.780,0:43:03.740
and the texts

0:43:03.760,0:43:05.820
that have appeared in,

0:43:05.900,0:43:08.200
or contributed to, this volume

0:43:08.320,0:43:13.040
break somewhat of this literary studies monopoly.

0:43:13.360,0:43:15.100
What's also certainly

0:43:15.180,0:43:16.420
significant

0:43:16.440,0:43:17.600
is

0:43:17.620,0:43:18.840
that the texts

0:43:18.860,0:43:21.380
that made up this issue we edited

0:43:21.380,0:43:25.220
demonstrate such a multitude of potential perspectives and

0:43:25.220,0:43:28.320
the use of various research tools,

0:43:28.340,0:43:29.960
often unexpected,

0:43:30.060,0:43:31.720
often unanticipated,

0:43:31.760,0:43:35.340
which lead to very interesting results and

0:43:35.340,0:43:36.640
actually demonstrate

0:43:36.940,0:43:40.240
what Wiktoria was talking about:

0:43:40.360,0:43:43.560
that the maladic discourse is still something not

0:43:43.560,0:43:45.400
entirely stabilized,

0:43:45.400,0:43:49.340
but at the same time provoking constant reflection,

0:43:49.440,0:43:54.220
suggesting various research tools and categories

0:43:54.220,0:43:54.760
.

0:43:54.900,0:43:58.560
So working on this issue was certainly an

0:43:58.560,0:43:59.940
intellectual,

0:43:59.940,0:44:03.160
very enriching adventure.

0:44:03.200,0:44:08.620
Perhaps it also confirmed that initial

0:44:08.620,0:44:10.300
, tentative thesis

0:44:10.320,0:44:13.900
that we can already speak of a maladic turn in Poland

0:44:13.900,0:44:15.540
.

0:44:17.040,0:44:19.240
I really liked the metaphor

0:44:19.240,0:44:20.620
Wiktoria used:

0:44:21.160,0:44:21.680
crystallization.

0:44:22.680,0:44:23.900
It shows the stage we're at

0:44:23.920,0:44:25.660
in terms of naradowy discourse and its

0:44:25.660,0:44:28.300
formation in Poland.

0:44:29.560,0:44:31.020
I also wanted to add here

0:44:31.040,0:44:35.220
that perhaps not even editing a single issue

0:44:35.220,0:44:38.140
of a literary movement changed my perspective.

0:44:38.180,0:44:39.040
It certainly broadened it,

0:44:39.100,0:44:40.900
as Asia mentioned here,

0:44:40.940,0:44:43.300
that there were many different readings,

0:44:43.300,0:44:44.400
completely new to me.

0:44:44.900,0:44:48.890
Quite often, quite beyond my

0:44:48.890,0:44:50.890
field of research interests,

0:44:50.910,0:44:53.250
but also, referring to the conference

0:44:53.290,0:44:55.010
we organized,

0:44:55.030,0:44:57.770
because the committee and the Council were all

0:44:57.770,0:44:58.490
women,

0:44:58.570,0:45:00.050
a multitude of readings.

0:45:00.050,0:45:02.070
There really was a very large number of speakers

0:45:02.070,0:45:02.710
who

0:45:02.810,0:45:05.550
presented various readings,

0:45:05.550,0:45:06.850
both of contemporary

0:45:06.850,0:45:08.210
and earlier texts.

0:45:08.210,0:45:09.230
In other words, using what

0:45:09.270,0:45:09.770
we might call

0:45:09.870,0:45:11.610
modern research tools

0:45:11.650,0:45:13.450
that are still being developed

0:45:13.550,0:45:15.970
to read texts,

0:45:16.540,0:45:20.100
let's say from the 19th century, there was an entire block devoted to it.

0:45:20.160,0:45:21.100
So I think

0:45:21.140,0:45:22.560
so,
it's definitely a perspective

0:45:22.600,0:45:24.940
that opens up new possibilities for

0:45:24.940,0:45:25.640
readings.

0:45:27.080,0:45:27.740
Finally

0:45:27.740,0:45:30.120
, I'd like us to return to the field

0:45:30.120,0:45:33.220
of literature from this discursive field.

0:45:33.580,0:45:36.900
Which narratives published in recent years have particularly caught

0:45:36.900,0:45:38.040
your attention?

0:45:38.620,0:45:41.200
It's difficult to pinpoint a few specific titles,

0:45:41.200,0:45:43.900
as each maladic narrative is a record

0:45:43.900,0:45:45.180
of distinct experiences

0:45:45.660,0:45:49.400
that have influenced my

0:45:49.400,0:45:51.720
perspective on reality to varying degrees.

0:45:52.140,0:45:54.220
Nevertheless, there are two narratives

0:45:54.360,0:45:55.880
I find myself

0:45:55.920,0:46:00.700
returning to often and that

0:46:00.700,0:46:02.580
remain with me.

0:46:03.200,0:46:05.700
I'll simply mention Mateusz Pakuła

0:46:05.700,0:46:08.060
and his book,

0:46:08.080,0:46:09.340
which was for me,

0:46:09.380,0:46:11.140
as he himself described it,

0:46:11.180,0:46:17.500
a narrative about co-dying with a loved one.

0:46:17.500,0:46:18.260
The perspective

0:46:18.340,0:46:21.120
he presented in this text,

0:46:21.200,0:46:22.120
demanding,

0:46:22.120,0:46:23.220
it seems to me,

0:46:23.240,0:46:27.220
a great deal of empathy and tenderness towards

0:46:27.220,0:46:29.520
a loved one,

0:46:29.520,0:46:31.260
was very important to me.

0:46:31.300,0:46:32.640
And I think

0:46:32.720,0:46:34.300
another important text for me,

0:46:34.340,0:46:37.080
one that has shaped my interest in maladic discourse

0:46:37.080,0:46:38.200
throughout my life,

0:46:39.340,0:46:41.040
perhaps even this journey.

0:46:41.120,0:46:42.600
It all began with him,

0:46:42.600,0:46:43.780
Aneta Żuchowska's Miech.

0:46:43.840,0:46:46.100
It was the first pathographic text

0:46:46.120,0:46:49.260
that I read and it was so shocking,

0:46:49.280,0:46:51.680
I guess I could use this formula,

0:46:51.800,0:46:52.960
that I decided

0:46:53.000,0:46:54.320
that

0:46:54.340,0:46:55.080
the problems

0:46:55.080,0:46:58.020
that Żuchowska raises and that take place in this

0:46:58.020,0:47:00.800
field of research are simply important to me and

0:47:00.800,0:47:04.960
It's important, and it's worth simply looking at it and

0:47:04.960,0:47:08.100
subjecting ourselves to such literary reflection.

0:47:09.620,0:47:12.780
I completely agree with

0:47:12.840,0:47:16.360
what Wiktoria said, and I also have,

0:47:16.500,0:47:17.380
honestly,

0:47:17.420,0:47:21.840
trouble identifying a few works

0:47:21.880,0:47:25.180
that I would consider groundbreaking in some way,

0:47:25.240,0:47:26.040
because I feel

0:47:26.040,0:47:29.700
that encountering pathographic narratives is never

0:47:29.700,0:47:30.240
easy.

0:47:30.300,0:47:36.460
It's very demanding and always leaves a mark.

0:47:37.000,0:47:38.520
So I think

0:47:38.540,0:47:40.160
that the examples

0:47:40.180,0:47:41.980
Wiktoria mentioned,

0:47:41.980,0:47:45.860
books by Mateusz Pakuła and Aneta Żukowska,

0:47:45.860,0:47:50.440
are indeed excellent confirmation of this statement.

0:47:50.560,0:47:52.760
However,

0:47:52.880,0:47:57.260
what I truly value in pathographic narratives

0:47:57.260,0:48:00.400
is also this reversal of perspective.

0:48:01.100,0:48:02.180
As I've already mentioned,

0:48:02.200,0:48:05.300
these are often such confused genres.

0:48:05.460,0:48:07.080
Not only pathographies,

0:48:07.120,0:48:10.920
but also, for example, a kind of

0:48:10.920,0:48:11.640
mourning

0:48:11.680,0:48:13.440
literature or funeral literature.

0:48:13.520,0:48:17.860
So I also value those narratives

0:48:17.940,0:48:20.960
that possess this additional component.

0:48:21.060,0:48:23.420
Here, the already mentioned book by Justyna Wicenta,

0:48:23.540,0:48:24.680
"Lullaby with a Hurricane,

0:48:24.700,0:48:27.160
"

0:48:27.160,0:48:28.600
seems like

0:48:28.660,0:48:29.160
a well-known

0:48:29.160,0:48:30.300
example of this type of narrative.

0:48:30.380,0:48:33.220
However, given my scholarly interests,

0:48:33.320,0:48:37.940
which revolve around the construct of female madness and how it has been represented in various texts over the centuries, not just literary ones, my attention is drawn to these publications, both those situated in the field of personal documentary literature and those of a fictional nature, which address the issue of this

0:48:37.960,0:48:41.160
mental

0:48:41.160,0:48:43.560
crisis

0:48:43.700,0:48:46.700
,

0:48:46.700,0:48:47.520
but

0:48:47.520,0:48:49.000
also

0:48:49.000,0:48:52.880
how

0:48:52.880,0:48:53.700
they

0:48:53.720,0:48:57.140
break

0:48:57.140,0:48:58.260
this

0:48:58.260,0:49:00.160
narrative

0:49:00.280,0:49:05.260
, that is, by using, for example, irony, grotesque, or mockery, as if directing their blade at the very pathosystem of, for example, healthcare or social relations, which can and usually do influence or exacerbate mental crisis

0:49:05.340,0:49:09.100
.

0:49:09.100,0:49:09.760
At

0:49:09.780,0:49:13.340
the

0:49:13.360,0:49:14.420
same

0:49:14.540,0:49:16.920
time

0:49:16.920,0:49:20.720
,

0:49:20.720,0:49:23.720
the

0:49:23.720,0:49:24.360
question

0:49:24.380,0:49:28.480
always

0:49:28.480,0:49:31.460
arises

0:49:31.480,0:49:33.620
about

0:49:33.620,0:49:37.860
the emancipatory or identity-building potential of these

0:49:37.860,0:49:38.420
narratives,

0:49:38.420,0:49:41.340
so if we consider the narrative itself, we can see the context in which they are presented.

0:49:41.800,0:49:43.040
Emilia Dłużewska's "

0:49:43.060,0:49:44.760
How to Cry in Public Places,"

0:49:44.800,0:49:46.900
or, for example, the notes of the madwoman Aleksandra

0:49:46.900,0:49:47.840
Młynarska-Gemza,

0:49:47.900,0:49:50.240
or, for example,

0:49:50.300,0:49:51.020
Olga Hund's "Psychra sniczki" ("Psyche of the Small Ones"),

0:49:51.080,0:49:52.940
which I greatly enjoy (

0:49:52.940,0:49:53.720
though I wonder

0:49:53.820,0:49:55.540
if the word "liked" is appropriate here,

0:49:55.700,0:49:58.840
perhaps "esteemed "),

0:49:58.900,0:50:00.140
are certainly books

0:50:00.140,0:50:02.820
I would highly recommend

0:50:02.900,0:50:04.740
to anyone interested in maladic discourse

0:50:05.580,0:50:08.580
. From storytelling through self-therapy,

0:50:09.180,0:50:12.060
to maladic discourse, and back to literature,

0:50:12.060,0:50:13.880
what does our journey look like today?

0:50:14.060,0:50:15.660
Thank you very much for the interview.

0:50:30.129,0:50:32.810
Co-financed by the state budget under

0:50:32.810,0:50:35.850
the Minister of Education and Science's program "Science

0:50:35.850,0:50:36.910
for Society II."

0:50:37.010,0:50:38.950
The project number is in the description.

0:50:39.950,0:50:42.830
We invite you to listen to subsequent episodes

0:50:42.830,0:50:44.910
available on Sprecare,

0:50:45.090,0:50:48.570
Spotify, and YouTube, as well as in the online Polish Studies Bulletin

0:50:48.570,0:50:49.350
.

0:50:49.950,0:50:51.410
See you soon!