Cultural disability studies examines the representation of
disability and people with disabilities.
We examine disability as a motif, a thematic element, and
a characterization element, but we also examine disability as a resource
that can provide new, deeper insights into reality. I hope that my
work and that of others in this area, not only academic but
also non-academic, will contribute to this
broadening of public discourse on disability.
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Polish studies are not a helpless observation of the world.
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Disability and Engagement. Under this guiding principle, we are creating a series of
conversations with activists, writers, and
researchers involved in various ways with the topic of disability.
Welcome to the third episode in our series of conversations about disability and various dimensions
of engagement, a series that is part of a larger podcast series called
"Biuletynu Spotkania" (Bulletin Meetings), created as part of a research project on the social
functions of contemporary humanities, including Polish studies. The project is carried out
by the Institute of Literary Research of the Polish Academy of Sciences.
My name is Magda Szarota, and today I'll be speaking with Dr. Katarzyna Ojńska,
a brilliant, award-winning researcher, English professor, and assistant professor in the Department of English
Drama, Theatre, and Film at the Institute of English Studies at the University of Lodz. For several years, Kasia
has been primarily working in cultural
disability studies. In 2020, Brill Publishing House
published the volume "Disability and Senses: Strategies of Disability Representation
and Inclusion in Contemporary Culture," which she co-edited with Maciej
Wieczorek. A book titled "Theatre and Disability," an anthology of stage and performance texts, will soon be published
, which
she edited with Justyna Lipko Konieczna. Together with Monika Kwaśniewska,
she co-edited the series "Caulification of Performative Arts," published in
2024-2025 in the Polish journal Didascalia. Besides
writing academic texts in Polish and English, she has also translated
books by, among others, Rosemary Garland Thomson for the Teatr 21 Foundation
, with which she regularly collaborates. She is currently translating
Alison Kefe's monograph "Feminist Queer Creep" into Polish, and, together with
Katarina Kolarowa, is working on a special volume for the magazine "TekMace"
titled "Creep and Queer Intimies." Hello Kasia.
Hello Magda, and hello to everyone listening.
First, I'd like to thank you very much for your tremendous work,
commitment, and such genuine alliance with the disability movement
. You are undoubtedly one of
the pioneers of Polish research on and about disability, and I'm not afraid of this word. That's why
I'm incredibly excited about our conversation. I'd like to start with the core of your
main activity, the cultural
studies of disability I mentioned in the introduction, which you're involved in. To introduce
this question through the Polish context, it's important to emphasize that in Poland, for several years now,
a group of people working at various universities and in activist circles have been increasingly
developing a research and cognitive perspective that
includes the word "disability" in its name, but it appears in
various configurations. For example, disability studies
, critical disability studies, or cultural
studies of disability. For many people, I have the impression that this
expression is a term that encompasses a
research ethos for them, but also a catalog of topics and methodologies they consider to be
priority. For others, I have the impression that these terms are almost
synonymous. I'm curious about how this plays out in your
practice, because, as I mentioned earlier, you most often
use the term "cultural studies of disability" when referring to your practice.
Disability. Why exactly? What do you mean by that? And perhaps you could
also explain the characteristics of disability cultural studies,
also providing a few specific examples of how research in this field is actually conducted
. Yes, it feels a bit like
October already, because very often
people come to my classes who haven't had much contact with
disability studies, and I begin by explaining what we'll be dealing with.
And a key word in my explanations is usually the word "
representation." Disability cultural studies
deals with the representation of disability and people with
disabilities. And the word "representation" itself has at least two
such key meanings. The first refers to the way in which,
in this case, disability and people with
disabilities are presented in various cultural texts, as well as in language itself. And here,
for example, we examine the evolution of these representations in the past.
And here, we often look for disability in places where
it is usually not noticed. An interesting example here is
Tołbin Sibers's book, "The Aesthetics of Disability," which I
recently had the opportunity to translate into Polish. In it, Sibers argues that
disability—that is, bodies, minds, non-normative,
disabled people—is essentially the foundation of modern art, beginning
with modernism, when artists began to experiment intensely with the form
and bodies they depicted. Avant-garde bodies
are situated far from these normative models, from the ideal proportions
illustrated by the Virtuvian Man in Dainci's drawing. Of course,
we are also interested in the present, that is, current representations
of disability. We also pay attention to reception, and here
I find it particularly interesting that in recent years in Poland, people
unrelated to cultural studies of disability have often lacked
a language of description. And this language is lacking to describe representations that are
unconventional, non-stereotypical. These individuals often
cling so tightly to familiar models, familiar narratives, and that's why I hope that my
work and the work of others in this area, not only academic but
also non-academic, will contribute to this
broadening of public discourse on disability. And finally,
cultural disability studies. I've also focused on the future, on
projecting the future in various cultural texts, including
speculative fiction, but I also strive to shape this future to be
inclusive, appreciative, so that this future appreciates diversity, the
multiplicity of ways of being in the world. So, broadly speaking, we can
say that cultural disability studies
deals with various representations in literature, film, art, the
press, the media, the advertising industry, and other such
cultural texts in a very broad sense. We examine
disability as a motif, a thematic element, an element
of characterization. Here, it often turns out that disability serves
as a so-called narrative prosthesis. This is a term from David Mitchell and
Sharon Sneider. So, a disabled character is often used metaphorically
; they represent a kind of tragedy, a weakness.
Disability also often drives the narrative itself, and here, disability often
appears as an enemy that must be defeated, and that's what
the narrative is about. We explore various topoi, such as the relationship between
disability and the supernatural world, disability as
somehow linked to evil, punishment for sins, but also as a source of some
supernatural abilities
. We also explore disability as a resource that can provide new, deeper insight into reality,
which is a source of reflection on contemporary life, on how
we build our society to better meet our individual
needs, here in Anglo-Saxon countries, and I think for
some time now in Poland as well, especially among Polish activists.
More left-wing sympathies. I think that for some time now, a recurring
theme has been the critique of neoliberalism and the model of the
independent, self-sufficient, hyper-efficient individual, pointing to
interdependence as an important element of the human condition
, and therefore promoting allyship and a certain ethic of care.
But returning to the beginning, and to these two meanings of representation,
I think I should also add that cultural studies of disability
also deals with representation in a slightly different sense, because representation
also means having representatives in a given area, here in
the area of ​​culture. So, we also deal with access
to culture for people with disabilities, not only from this
perspective of recipients, but also from the perspective of those co-creating culture,
those who work within it. And this is important for many reasons. I think this
kind of representation can help counteract the perpetuation of certain
stereotypes and one-dimensional, often harmful
beliefs, but it can also be a source of more formal innovation,
a source of new aesthetics. Thank you so much for this comprehensive,
yet concise, answer. I have the impression that people who
haven't fully understood what disability cultural studies is until now
will feel encouraged not only to read about it but
also to delve deeper into the research being
conducted, and perhaps even, in some way , to co-create more intersectional research
from their other research positions
. I feel that the areas you mentioned actually
demand intersectional
engagement, yes, research, between different disciplines. You also draw methodologically, I have
the impression that the results of your research and
various theoretical, so-called, explorations are therefore so interesting.
Absolutely. Um, although this is also
very problematic in the academic environment, because if we want to climb the
academic career ladder, it suddenly turns out that
we don't fit in at all. So, yeah, so it's also a
challenge for us. At one point, you mentioned the
contribution of activists with disabilities
to co-creating what might be called cultural studies of disability
, and I wanted to move on to a question that also applies
to the Polish context. But again, the introduction
to this question is that it's truly unique that you're
both a researcher and theorist, developing the culture of
disability studies in Poland, often in relation to Polish
cultural texts. You also have extensive experience as a translator of
theoretical texts by authors of
disability studies from, say, the broadly defined
Anglo-American academy. Among other things, you translated
American professor Rosema Garland Thompson's book
"Gawienie się" (Gaping, or How We Look and How We Show Ourselves to Others),
published by the Teatr 21 Foundation and the Center for Inclusive Art
in the important series "Reclaiming Presence," edited by Ewelina
Godlewska-Byliniak and Justyna Lipko-Koznaczna.
Other books in this series were translated by
Magdalena Zdrow-Zdrodowska and Natalia Pamuła, who are also researchers
in disability studies. And at the same time, you are committed to
ensuring that the reception of these theories developed outside the Polish context
, or more broadly, outside Eastern Europe, is not uncritical, not
copy-paste. And I'm interested in
Garland Thompson's theoretical work, in particular, because her book, "Gapienie się," is recognized in
international disability studies and has already achieved
canonical status. What would you point out as
particularly helpful for researchers who would like
to analyze Polish literature from a
disability perspective, and why would you point out these aspects as
Helpful, but also, on the other hand, what would you advise avoiding,
and why? Rosemary Garen Thomson's book is
actually the first book I had the pleasure of translating for
the Teatr 21 Foundation. This book is very important to me because Rosemary Garen Thompson was
also the person who introduced me to
disability cultural studies, and in her own way, she's also a mentor, an important
person to me, because my introduction to disability studies came
through the Anglo-Saxon context, yes, because I'm primarily an English major.
I think that when it comes to this particular book, it's worth mentioning that
it was published around the same time as another book by Garen Thomson,
translated by Natalia Pamu, "The Extraordinary Representations of
Physical Disability in American Culture and Literature." And I think that in this
context, the book about staring perhaps has a certain advantage, because
the starting point for Garen Thompson in this particular work isn't
American culture, but rather a scholarly reflection on human instincts related to
visual interactions. What distinguishes this book is its
alternative perspective on the phenomenon of staring. Generally, in the
academic community, a lot of staring has been written about
the construction and perpetuation of certain power relations and the imposition of subordination. This is where
Michelle Fou, for example, and his analyses, his observations of people
in total institutions from prison to school, are being misrepresented. His concept of the medical
gaze, which is a
prioritizing, dehumanizing gaze in a gendered context, is also
very close to the male gaze. Male gaz, about which John Berger wrote:
"Men act, and women look. Men look at women,
women look at themselves." And then there
's the issue of staring as a certain taboo. It's not always appropriate to
stare. This also applies to people with disabilities
, and staring at people with disabilities is associated with
unhealthy curiosity; inappropriate behavior is a kind of taboo.
Ganon Thompson, of course, alludes to these issues, but at the same time
departs from certain popular narratives, arguing that staring is,
above all, a natural human reaction to the unexpected, to the unforeseen. And
the person at whom the stare is directed is, as it were
, part of the situation and doesn't necessarily have to play the
role of a passive object. Thus, staring is a certain
interaction in which the person being stared at, we might say
, can play an active role, can shape the relationship. So, it's
a multifaceted relationship, a living relationship, a relationship that
can change dynamically. So now, how can we apply this? At
first glance, it might seem that Garland
Thompson's application here might be limited to the visual arts. However, I think there are also
some applications in literature and literary studies.
For example, I believe that in literary studies,
Garland Thomson's theses encourage a focus on the relationship between
characters, but also on the relationship between the reader and
the characters described, who behave or simply appear in some non-normative
way. Thus, reading literary texts through the lens of
Garland Thomson's theory, we can consider the social functions of such
intense gaze, the intense gaze in a given text,
and consider how literature creates certain hierarchies between the so-called
normal, the normie, and the other. Does the gaze create distance, or perhaps
express fascination, shame, pity, or perhaps other emotions and
reactions that are more non-stereotypical
? What are the dynamics of this interaction? And I also think that Garen Thompson's book
is also very interesting in terms of language itself, because Garen Thomson
uses language very, very creatively, as if showing that this is our
focus on sight, and this sight-centricity, this oculocentrism
also clearly manifests itself in language, clearly manifests itself in language,
We use it every day. Many of the expressions she uses from
this rich idiom, of course, also have equivalents in
Polish, but not all of them. This was also
the subject of some reflection and criticism, for example, in the play "Widomi" (Widows)
by the Horea Theatre in Łódź, which was
co-created by visually impaired people, so it's also worth focusing on
. So, on the one hand, I see the universality of this book, but
on the other, I absolutely don't want to encourage uncritical acceptance
of Garland Thompson's theses, but rather a critical
examination of them, that is, developing this theory or even contesting it,
perhaps with particular attention to such minor
contextual differences. You said that Garland Thompson is
a researcher, a theoretician, very important to you from the beginning of your
academic career. I'm curious if this book is
one of hers that you return to over the years, and if its meaning changes for you
, in terms of how it's useful to you
methodologically, let's say, as a tool.
I think so. I think that, interestingly enough, it's also a good book to
start your adventure with disability studies. It's not
just a book about disability. It's essentially a book about
encountering the other, the unusual, the unexpected.
So I think I find applications for
Tesgar and Thomson in very different areas that also interest me, because
it's not just disability studies. I
also really, really enjoy seeking connections, various alliances with other
fields of research. Engagement.
Engagement. Referring to the theme of our podcast,
you mentioned language in your previous post, language that is
dense, heavily charged with meaning, for
example, in the writing of Garland Thompson. And I wanted to focus on
language and disability studies now .
One of the elements of developing broadly understood disability studies
by Polish researchers and activists is focusing
on language, on terms that are not only intended to serve as Polish equivalents
of existing concepts, primarily from Anglo-American research,
but also on creating new ones that are, on the one hand, relevant to local experiences and
histories, and on the other, theoretical
propositions with perhaps more universal potential.
I'm curious if you've encountered any terms
made in Poland that you think would be worth disseminating more widely, or
perhaps even exporting outside of Poland. H, I'd definitely have to
think about it some more, but such things, and such words and expressions that
come to mind, are, first of all, alternative motor skills,
used very often by Rafał Urbacki, for example, to describe his
own work. And here, the adjective "Alternatywnij" seems rather
elevating to me. In a sense, we're talking about art, music, and
alternative culture—a culture that doesn't follow
the mainstream, that swims somewhat against the current, that doesn't replicate existing
frameworks and models, but creates new ones, and that is a kind of avant-garde.
Yes. And I think I'll stick with the letter A, because the second word is
Karolina Wiktor's "aphasians." And that's where my
initial reaction was, well, mixed
feelings. I thought this expression
actually made people with aphasia seem a bit odd, making them seem like
Martians, visitors from another planet. But
at the same time, I realized it didn't have any
negative connotations. And the third one, ai, is
the word actress, used by
the actress of the 21 Theatre, Aleksandra Skotarek, and this is how she describes herself as
a stage professional who openly and very directly
talks about her femininity, talks about her
sexuality, talks about her body, talks about its desires, and does it in a
very brave, very, very predatory way, like a lioness, like a tigress, like
Like a toxoid. On the one hand, it challenges certain models of submissive femininity, and
on the other, the common perception of people with
intellectual disabilities as eternal children. You've opened the possibility of continuing this alphabet
and truly remembering,
even when reading various research papers or translations, to pay
attention to certain terms, because they are often opaque and not without
significance. I'm curious how you approach translating two
fundamental terms for disability studies, let's say,
disability and impairment in Polish.
Disability as a disability, as a largely
cultural construct. However, yes, I had a problem with "imperment." And
here, too, because in English, the word
"imperment" is more neutral than any Polish
equivalent, so I most often use the words
"damage" or "dysfunction." I just really don't like this breathless sound,
but I haven't come up with anything better yet.
I also agree with you that,
paradoxically, "impairment" causes more problems in translation than "disability" in
Polish. Many of the translations
of equivalents I encounter, as you say, have a pejorative
meaning that the English original doesn't quite capture.
I've also encountered the term "niesprawność" (disability).
And this "niesprawność" (disability). And that's not true, and it's largely as if the
original meant to get rid of the beginning of
the word "dys." We also encourage
word-formers to look for an equivalent of
"impairment" in Polish. And when it comes to
the word "literature," literature is part of the cultural texts you analyze
in your research, and literature is also
very important in the context of our project, as it is at the center of our interests. I'm
curious to hear your opinion about the main trends you see in recent
literature. Let's assume such conventional censorship occurred after the ratification
of the Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities in Poland
, i.e., after 2012, which takes into account the perspective and experience of disability, but in
a more political and engaged way.
In recent years, I have the impression that we have witnessed a flourishing of what
we call disability life writing,
which involves not only people with
disabilities themselves but also caregivers and
assistants. I think that in recent years in Poland,
quite a lot of attention has been paid to the voices of parents, especially mothers, of people
with disabilities, and these are certainly incredibly important
voices. If I recall correctly,
Dorota Danielewicz and Magdalena Moskwa also participated in this podcast.
However, it seems to me that
the voices of people with disabilities
themselves are somewhat lacking in this mainstream
. I'm not an expert in Polish literature, but based on my reading experience, I would
definitely recommend Dorota Kotas and her books. It seems to me that
her work is a very interesting literary attempt
to capture the experience of a person on the autism spectrum, who is
also someone with ADHD. And so, in terms of form, these books seem to me to
allude somewhat to stream-of-consciousness. Sometimes even with elements of
magical realism. The author often jumps from topic to topic,
presenting various snapshots of everyday life, but it's not
the plot that matters most here, but what's happening within the narrator herself.
And I think that Kotas's books also have a lot in common with the dramatic texts
co-created by 21 Theatre actresses Maja Kowalczyk and Aleksandra Skotarek,
as well as Justyna Lipko Konieczna. Um, and Justyna here, uh, mainly plays,
or rather largely plays, the role of a midwife, a facilitator
who creates these plays based on conversations, uh, improvisation, just
like in the case of body to body with Merlin, or uh, I'm not
a plant stream of consciousness. And here again, I'll allow myself a little
Self-promotion, because these texts will be published in September in a book titled
Theatre and Disability. Yes, I particularly recommend
these plays because I think that, to some extent, like Kotas's work, they
fit into what the French writer Elen Siko calls lec feminine,
that is, writing by women for women,
but also writing from the body, writing focused on the body, one's own body, on
its needs. Um, I think there's also
an interesting play in the anthology by Kinga Chudobińska, Pain, in which, in which play
Kinga Chudobińska juxtaposes her own story with the diaries of the saint, uh,
Faustyna Kowalska, uh, CIS Barberlon, and Aleksander Vat. And she also weaves
lyrics from the band Caliber 44 into the narrative. I think this is a very important piece of work,
also because pain is rarely discussed in
critical disability studies and
disability rights activism, which counters the overwhelming
emphasis on strength and pride. Now, this is starting to change a bit. However
, I think Kinga Chudobińska presents her
story in a very interesting way. She writes about pain, about lack of strength, about anger, about
the trauma associated with the changes in her body-mind as
she acquires a disability. And at the same time, this narrative doesn't fit
the model of individual tragedy, that it deals with love,
interdependence, and survival, but this survival is not only connected
to living despite everything, despite illness,
despite disability, but also thanks to disability, thanks to these
experiences. And I think the last book
I'd like to mention is Maria Reyman. And I won't say hello to
you on the street. An autoethnographic book
by a Polish researcher who recently passed away. I deeply regret that I didn't have
the opportunity to meet Maria in person, although we exchanged
emails at one point. This book is
actually a very personal reflection on my own disability,
and on my own academic work in the field of disability studies,
which describes, and I think
so clearly challenges, binary oppositions, showing that disability
in its various forms is not monolithic,
but rather a kind of spectrum. And this division into able-bodied and disabled
is largely simplistic. Thank you for these various
recommendations and important books. I can also add,
regarding poetry and disability, that I encourage you to listen to the second
episode of our podcast, in which Dominika Filipowicz, poet and activist,
maps out a bit of contemporary Polish poetry. She also speaks in a very interesting way
about the challenges associated with writing from the body and about the body, which,
on the one hand, doesn't fit into the neoliberal
trend of thinking about the body, and on the other hand,
isn't the kind of writing that's devoid of political,
technical, or even communal dimensions. Dominika
talks very interestingly about this kind of identity poetry. I encourage you to listen to
the conversation with Dominika. Regarding Maria Rajman, we absolutely
recommend her autoethnographic book titled "I Won't Greet You
on the Street," as well as your articles, in which
you analyze this book and this work. And I have the impression that what
Mari has actually managed to achieve through her writing and approaching
her research from such a meta-level of very self-reflexivity is that she
in such a unique way complicates and deepens the understanding
of concepts such as disability itself,
but also the identity of people with disabilities.
He also problematizes issues of community, breaking down the homogeneity
of who people with disabilities are or can be as a
social group, but he also
writes in a very moving way about what so-called coming out as a person with
a disability can mean. In your research, you
also explore the intersection of cultural studies of disability with other areas.
Research. You mentioned that there are many such research and
methodological areas, which you draw from, which you are interested in
, and which you connect with cultural disability studies.
For example, you carried out a project on the intersection of cultural
disability studies and ecocriticism, focusing on issues of
disability and biodiversity in selected cultural texts. I would be
interested if you could tell us, based on this project or your other research and
research activities in this area, what arguments you would make for incorporating
the disability perspective into other research areas?
How do you think invoking it
simultaneously enriches and complicates existing ecocritical practices, for example, especially in
the field of literary studies. Generally speaking, I think I would start from
the fact that ecocriticism and broadly defined ecology have long been based on
a rather traditional perception of nature, based on binary
oppositions: human, nature, nature, culture, artificial, natural.
This paradigm shift has led to
a posthumanist approach, which demonstrates that nature is a certain
conventional construct. However, the bodies and minds
of people with disabilities have often been constructed as excluded
from the natural world, as a kind of perception of nature, as a mistake of nature, rather than as
part of the environment. And posthumanism precisely knocks
humans off the pedestal on which they have placed themselves.
And the posthumanist vision is more horizontal than hierarchical,
strongly based on the idea of ​​interdependence. And I think that's why
it's a very good entry point for reflection on how we create certain
hierarchies, including hierarchies of people, by excluding and discriminating against certain
groups. However, connecting ecological and disability themes
is very difficult because people with various disabilities
have been and continue to be compared to animals
or called vegetables, which historically has led to violence and
extermination. It's also helpful that some well-known contemporary
philosophers, such as Peter Singer and Jeff McMachen, who defend animal rights,
don't consider people with so-called significant disabilities to be persons
and don't consider their lives to be properly worth living. But
we also now have examples of, I think, quite effective combining
of these perspectives, and here, well, I must definitely recommend Nor
Taylor's book, translated into Polish, "Bnęnce brzemie," which
combines these reflections on disability studies and
animal studies, touching on a number of themes, such as the impairment of
both animals, or nonhuman and human animals,
due to the devastating impact of anthropogenic factors on
the environment. This is also related to her own disability,
a disability caused by
environmental pollution in the place where she was born. I would also like to mention
that Sunaura Taylor also deals with ableism in a very broad sense, and in
her book, she argues that this issue affects not only humans but
also animals. As she writes, ableism is a force
that affects not only humans. It is a violence that affects all bodies. Thus
, animal minds, like
the minds of disabled people or those belonging to various other
discredited and disadvantaged groups, are sometimes
defined precisely in this anthropocentric perspective as entities
deprived of certain such valuable traits,
as entities deprived of certain valued
qualities. Sondara Taylor, in her
theoretical and artistic work, often raises the topic
of resentments, sentiments surrounding the extermination of people with
disabilities, eugenic practices, or eugenic
tendencies expressed in the discourse, the ubiquitous discourse on people with
disabilities. In your research, you also
deal with an extremely important, but unfortunately largely
forgotten, topic, namely the T4 operation, an operation that was
Implemented in the Third Reich, in short, it involved the systematic
extermination of people with disabilities,
because, as the propaganda claimed, their lives were unworthy of life and
burdened the masses economically and socially.
And the goal of your research, too, I have
the impression, is to attempt to reverse the social and political amnesia
surrounding the T4 campaign, but also these eugenic tropes in
culture. Do Polish texts, and in what way?
Cultural texts, including literature, contribute to
recovering this memory, history, and the dignity
of the victims? Do they broaden and deepen, in such a critical way, the
contemporary understanding of these discourses on disability in
the context of eugenics? This is a very broad topic for me, and
I think there's enough material here for an entire podcast, or even more.
But I've tried to keep it brief, starting with the fact that the memory of
disabled victims of Nazism in Poland
was, in fact, rather sparsely present, and the only
people who took on the role of guardians of
this memory were psychiatrists, including Zdzisław Jaroszewski,
and later Tadeusz Nasirowski. Their approach
, however, was from the perspective of medical historians. For a long time, these
victims were essentially overlooked in public discourse, treated
as inferior, less important victims. And if they were discussed at all,
the dominant discourse was often one of pity, of leaning on the
weaker. Sometimes, attempts were made to inscribe them within the martyrdom of the
Polish nation. Interestingly, more recently, not only as
defenseless, powerless victims, but also as victims who sought to
somehow confront the enemy. However, these representations
also very often omit the disability of these individuals. They hide it somehow
, so they turn these helpless victims into
heroes and heroines. However, the disability itself disappears somewhat.
As for non-fiction, I think I would definitely recommend
Kalina Błażejowska's 2023 book, "Bezdusznie zapomniana głaza zdrowie" (The Soullessly Forgotten Holocaust of the Sick),
which presents this topic from a more critical and
contemporary perspective. As for literary texts themselves,
there are several more contemporary texts that, in my
opinion, have considerable literary value. However, these are still texts written
by people without disabilities, which sometimes, for example, slightly
depart from the facts, as in the case of Weronika Murek and Finewine Vline's play,
or somewhat marginalize disabled body-minds,
disabled victims, as in the case of Anna
David Meller's book "Góra Tiget," which is an excellent book. Um, but there
's this motif of extermination, uh, in a psychiatric hospital, uh, and the main
character is, uh, an able-bodied boy who ends up there because he doesn't
get along with his German stepfather. And we're kind of
observing these other children, the disabled children,
from a certain distance, and we're looking at them through the eyes of one of the characters, little
Rysio, who is able-bodied. However, for me, a
very important cultural text for commemorating people with disabilities
is definitely the performance by Teatr 21,
which was originally staged at the Polin Museum in a very special
place, because it was a room that was an empty space and
led to a gallery dedicated to the Holocaust. And
here, I think, both the title of this performance, which
refers to the saddest day in the Jewish calendar,
and the very place where it took place, allude to the view
of many historians that Operation T4 was a prelude to the Holocaust.
However, Tisza Bav itself, as a performance, as a performative action,
I think that in a very, very direct way shows the transition from
stigmatization to elimination, from such simple physical exercises and
backyard games that actually expose certain exclusionary
Social behavior and principles, from the stigmatization of those who are free,
the smaller, the weaker, the less fortunate, to the ultimate
elimination. I remember the first time I discovered
that this very
group of Nazi victims, one might say
, was not mentioned at all in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. That is,
they were locked away, as I call it, in a closet under the title, and so
on and so forth. At the same time, it was a group that
took many, many decades to fight for its own convention at
the UN. So, putting these facts together, it's absolutely
shocking, and it's not something that exists only in the past.
I'm really looking forward to the documentary, which has already been released, but not yet
widely distributed. It's directed by Cameron Mitchell, who is
the son of the researchers you mentioned earlier, Professor
David Mitchell, and Sharon Snyider. Cameron Mitchell made a
documentary film specifically about Operation T4, titled "Disposable Humanity." I don't
know if you've seen this film yet. Yes, I did, because I also had a
small contribution, because the entire Sneider Mitchell family came to Poland,
including to the fort where, in fact, a gas chamber was first used
to exterminate not Jews, but people from a nearby
psychiatric hospital. And that's where some of the footage was also recorded. This
was also one of the places Sneider and Mitchell visited, essentially
as a pilgrimage, which was also documented
on film. Yes. However, this is also
a continuation of their work, which they began much, much earlier.
As a young boy, Cameron Mitchell traveled with his parents and sister
to places in Germany where people with
disabilities were exterminated, and this was also documented in the film
"A World Without Bodies." These titles will also be included in
the recommendations in the description, so you can locate them and use these
resources.
[Music] Finally, three recurring questions
we ask all our guests. First, what
event related to the disability rights movement
do you consider so important to you personally?
Okay, so maybe I'll allow myself a bit of a coming-out here,
because I think what's very important to me right now is that in recent years,
neurodiversity and mental illness have been destigmatized
among a large portion of the younger generation in Poland . And
recently, I've been observing that young people who come to
my classes are speaking openly about their experiences
and their needs. And of course, at the same time, I'm noticing many
problems related to, for example, the fact that it's very difficult to get access
to doctors who specialize in neurodiversity, even privately.
Public discourse is again heavily focused on the
neurodiversity craze, the ADHD craze, overdiagnosis, and so on
. But why does this concern me personally, and why is it
so important to me? Well, I think it's because I recently experienced a
depressive episode myself. I'm in the process of being diagnosed with something that might place me somewhere
on the neuroatypical spectrum, but I think these changes
will make it easier for me to navigate this spectrum and find
a place where I can find the right support, not just
medical but also social.
Fortunately, we're already at a point where there
are more and more supportive communities, so even though these experiences will remain
difficult, you're not completely alone, as was the case
even a decade or 20 years ago in Poland.
The second question in this series of questions is, if you had to point out one
thing, what would be missing from the contemporary narrative about disability?
I think it's very difficult for us to move away from this ethos of overcoming
disability to become this super-efficient, independent individual.
A unit of value for the capitalist
order, which I think is undoubtedly very difficult in the current
political climate, when a very large percentage of citizens vote
for a populist party that promotes extreme national liberalism.
So I think that, and I think that maybe we're also a little lacking in this
intersectionality, and in building alliances between the
disability rights movement
and the civil rights movement, human rights movement, and the rights of various other
disadvantaged groups. And that's precisely why I really wanted to translate
Kefer's book. And I'm glad I was able to do so. We're really looking forward
to this translation, because it's another incredibly important work not only in
the field of disability studies, but also in the field of gender studies,
so we're really, really looking forward to it. And the last question:
If you're thinking about any specific, or dreaming about,
social change in the context of disability,
what kind? I'm thinking about many changes. I'm
definitely looking forward to the personal assistance law, but I'm also waiting for
a change in the general mindset of people living in Poland. I recently
had a brief conversation with a very frustrated teacher working in
integrated classes. I understood her frustration,
but I also noticed that beneath that frustration, there
's a certain kind of resentment, especially toward people with
intellectual disabilities. So I'd like us to stop thinking of social
inclusion as something that's impossible to achieve, as
simply some uh, absolutely uh, impossible utopia. And
we shouldn't think that because the solutions
implemented so far have proven ineffective, we should
return to the previous state of affairs. And I'd like us
to make an effort to be more inclusive now
. I don't mean for everyone here to be strongmen,
making this effort individually, but rather for us to support each other in
thinking about systemic change and fighting for it, for implementing it.
Thank you very much. We wish courage to those responsible for
social policies, and that funding for these changes will also be available.
Kasia, thank you again for the conversation and for your excellent work in
various fields, and we'll see you on the path of activist research.
See you soon. Thank you very much for the invitation.
[Music]
The podcast series "Engaged Polish Studies" was produced as part of the project
"Polish Studies and the Challenges of the Modern World." It was co-financed from the state budget
under the Minister of Education and Science's program "Science for
Society 2." The project number is in the description.
We invite you to listen to subsequent episodes available on
Spraker, Spotify, and YouTube, as well as in the online Polish studies bulletin.
See you soon.
[Music]