0:00:00.000,0:00:02.580
When we're in that doctor's office

0:00:02.580,0:00:05.820
and we hear a specifically formulated statement

0:00:05.820,0:00:08.160
from our patient, and we possess the ability

0:00:08.160,0:00:09.920
to focus on form,

0:00:09.940,0:00:12.280
we'll be able to hear

0:00:12.280,0:00:14.720
whether they are speaking about they own fears,

0:00:14.780,0:00:17.240
or whether they're, for example, the fears of their partners,

0:00:17.240,0:00:20.800
who said something before the visit, and so on.

0:00:20.800,0:00:22.440
Whose voice is this?

0:00:22.440,0:00:26.020
Whose voice is speaking through the patient? Their own,

0:00:26.020,0:00:29.200
or perhaps someone else's, imposed on them from the outside.

0:00:29.200,0:00:34.470
[Music]

0:00:34.470,0:00:37.070
We invite you to listen to episodes of the new podcast series

0:00:37.070,0:00:38.684
"Polish Studies Newsletter's Meetings"

0:00:38.684,0:00:43.530
(Polish Studies Newsletter's Meetings) titled "Engaged Polish Studies."

0:00:43.530,0:00:46.350
Polish studies aren't a powerless observation of the world.

0:00:47.370,0:00:48.890
They provide tools

0:00:48.890,0:00:50.170
to navigate it,

0:00:50.170,0:00:51.950
help understand it, and

0:00:52.110,0:00:55.450
prevent exclusion and loneliness.

0:00:57.130,0:00:59.130
This is the Polish studies

0:00:59.130,0:01:01.310
we want to showcase through our project:

0:01:02.720,0:01:04.940
Engaged Polish Studies.

0:01:04.940,0:01:17.200
[Music]

0:01:17.200,0:01:20.560
[Mariola Wilczak:] You're a linguist at the Institute of Polish Language

0:01:20.560,0:01:22.060
at the University of Warsaw,

0:01:22.120,0:01:25.060
a graduate of the Faculty of Polish Studies at the University of Warsaw

0:01:25.060,0:01:28.620
and a post-master's degree in speech therapy. You're

0:01:28.620,0:01:32.642
also a member and secretary of the Language in Medicine Team

0:01:32.642,0:01:34.056
of the Polish Language Council of the Polish Academy

0:01:35.060,0:01:36.740
of Sciences and the Polish Society for Medical Communication.

0:01:36.760,0:01:40.000
You've authored interdisciplinary works

0:01:40.000,0:01:41.840
on narrative medicine,

0:01:41.900,0:01:43.320
medical communication,

0:01:43.380,0:01:44.700
the experience of illness,

0:01:44.760,0:01:47.240
and the semantics of pain in contemporary Polish.

0:01:47.770,0:01:49.830
But I met you as the editor

0:01:49.870,0:01:52.490
and co-author of the volume "Narrative Medicine:

0:01:52.550,0:01:54.730
Stories about the Experience of Illness in

0:01:54.730,0:01:56.230
Medical and Humanist

0:01:56.270,0:01:57.550
Perspectives".

0:01:57.850,0:02:00.530
[Marta Chojnacka-Kuraś:] Yes, that's all right. I can actually ask

0:02:00.530,0:02:01.390
myself about my motivations.

0:02:01.390,0:02:02.530
Where did they come from?

0:02:03.250,0:02:04.090
Because yes,

0:02:04.425,0:02:06.710
I don't have doctors in my family.

0:02:06.710,0:02:09.889
I'm not the child of a surgeon and a nurse,

0:02:09.889,0:02:10.389
for example.

0:02:11.410,0:02:14.370
The only medical professionals

0:02:14.370,0:02:15.770
in my family are pharmacists,

0:02:15.850,0:02:17.170
my brother, and my sister-in-law.

0:02:17.600,0:02:19.160
So there's something there, I'm not saying

0:02:19.160,0:02:19.660
nothing.

0:02:20.000,0:02:21.900
So it's not like it came from that.

0:02:22.820,0:02:23.920
But I feel

0:02:23.920,0:02:28.600
like medicine has always interested me

0:02:28.600,0:02:30.460
as a field,

0:02:30.480,0:02:31.660
as a discipline.

0:02:31.700,0:02:34.200
It had something fascinating about it, and I also have

0:02:34.200,0:02:36.780
such great respect for doctors,

0:02:36.780,0:02:39.580
nurses, and all those performing

0:02:39.580,0:02:41.300
these difficult medical professions.

0:02:42.200,0:02:45.420
So I've always been interested in

0:02:45.420,0:02:46.180
the history of medicine,

0:02:46.260,0:02:49.820
how people have imagined

0:02:49.920,0:02:51.380
illness over the centuries,

0:02:51.460,0:02:52.740
where it comes from,

0:02:52.760,0:02:55.040
what is the doctor's role is in all of this,

0:02:55.320,0:02:57.860
how it has developed and improved.

0:02:57.960,0:03:01.220
So I also have books like that on my shelf

0:03:01.220,0:03:02.340
and I like to read them.

0:03:02.540,0:03:03.860
It's kind of the same thing.

0:03:04.460,0:03:06.140
Then, in college,

0:03:06.140,0:03:08.140
as you mentioned,

0:03:08.160,0:03:11.180
I did a vocational specialization in speech therapy.

0:03:11.380,0:03:14.580
Later, I completed this specialization as part of

0:03:14.580,0:03:16.340
a postgraduate program in speech therapy.

0:03:16.340,0:03:18.900
This was before the speech therapy program was established

0:03:18.900,0:03:19.660
at our faculty.

0:03:20.030,0:03:24.290
And it was there that linguistics, in a way, revealed itself to me

0:03:24.290,0:03:26.750
in this interdisciplinary approach.

0:03:27.230,0:03:29.390
It was very functionalized,

0:03:29.490,0:03:33.050
very practically connected with psychology

0:03:33.050,0:03:34.150
and elements of medicine,

0:03:34.310,0:03:38.190
so it's also a different source.

0:03:38.270,0:03:42.770
And finally, I think the turning point was

0:03:42.770,0:03:43.690
when

0:03:43.770,0:03:45.570
I finished my master's degree.

0:03:46.280,0:03:49.560
So I went on to doctoral studies

0:03:49.560,0:03:51.280
and started writing a thesis about pain.

0:03:55.380,0:03:58.850
And here, while reading and

0:03:58.850,0:04:01.470
searching for various studies on this topic,

0:04:01.470,0:04:04.610
to broaden the context with

0:04:04.610,0:04:05.790
various medical and

0:04:05.790,0:04:06.570
communication aspects,

0:04:06.590,0:04:07.750
it turned out

0:04:07.790,0:04:09.610
that this was a fascinating topic,

0:04:09.650,0:04:11.970
that there was a vast field for

0:04:11.990,0:04:15.430
researching the relationship between language

0:04:15.430,0:04:16.070
and medicine,

0:04:16.190,0:04:19.250
language in medical communication in particular.

0:04:19.550,0:04:23.589
And when I wrote this thesis

0:04:23.589,0:04:24.980
on these expressions in Polish,

0:04:24.980,0:04:27.500
which we use to describe pain,

0:04:27.520,0:04:28.780
so I felt like,

0:04:28.780,0:04:29.320
okay,

0:04:29.320,0:04:31.000
I'd developed a small piece,

0:04:31.000,0:04:31.600
a tiny fragment,

0:04:31.600,0:04:32.500
but a very important one.

0:04:33.420,0:04:37.020
But there are many more such fragments,

0:04:37.040,0:04:40.500
for example, the overall experience of illness itself,

0:04:40.560,0:04:43.120
because pain is just a symptom of something else,

0:04:43.140,0:04:43.960
something more,

0:04:44.120,0:04:47.380
and sometimes pain is an illness in itself.

0:04:47.520,0:04:50.700
So this distinction also somehow struck me

0:04:50.700,0:04:53.280
as extremely interesting.

0:04:53.340,0:04:56.480
So, in a way, various sources

0:04:56.480,0:04:57.340
merged within me.

0:04:58.000,0:05:00.200
And I can't break away from this topic.

0:05:00.920,0:05:03.060
I tried, but I can't.

0:05:03.530,0:05:05.910
[Mariola Wilczak:] And above all, narrative medicine, right?

0:05:06.390,0:05:11.410
[Marta Chojnacka-Kuraś:] This work on the semantics of pain also proved

0:05:11.410,0:05:13.830
pivotal in my life in that it

0:05:13.830,0:05:16.330
sort of led me to the Language in Medicine Team.

0:05:17.410,0:05:19.430
Professor Renata Grzegorczykowa,

0:05:19.510,0:05:23.210
who accompanied me in writing this work during classes as part of my studies here,

0:05:26.030,0:05:27.150
in this kind of collaborative thinking,

0:05:27hhhhhhhh.480,0:05:30.280
put me in touch with Dr. Antonina Doroszewska,

0:05:30.280,0:05:32.160
who was on the medical language team at the time.

0:05:32.440,0:05:35.880
And that's where we began collaborating

0:05:35.880,0:05:36.800
in various fields.

0:05:36.800,0:05:39.200
We've completed several projects and continue to work

0:05:39.200,0:05:39.800
together.

0:05:40.820,0:05:44.740
And then, at the same time,

0:05:44.880,0:05:47.080
everything came together.

0:05:47.140,0:05:50.320
The Polish Society for Medical Communication was founded,

0:05:50.680,0:05:55.488
and that's where I met doctors

0:05:55.488,0:05:56.780
from Bydgoszcz, Wrocław,

0:05:56.780,0:05:58.033
Poznań, and Kraków.

0:05:58.033,0:06:01.340
It was only from them,

0:06:01.380,0:06:03.100
as sources,

0:06:03.100,0:06:05.060
as if I heard from doctors, that

0:06:05.060,0:06:06.940
I learned about something called narrative medicine.

0:06:08.600,0:06:09.700
And I had the feeling

0:06:09.700,0:06:12.740
that this was a rather unknown area in Poland,

0:06:12.920,0:06:14.460
in Polish studies.

0:06:18.120,0:06:21.810
There were several sociological works,

0:06:21.810,0:06:23.760
or let's say

0:06:23.760,0:06:27.189
works written by nurses,

0:06:27.189,0:06:29.840
that explored narrative medicine

0:06:29.840,0:06:31.135
from this perspective.

0:06:31.135,0:06:33.000
And I thought to myself,

0:06:33.080,0:06:34.260
oh my,

0:06:34.260,0:06:36.820
this is an incredibly interesting field,

0:06:36.840,0:06:41.000
where narrative, literary studies,

0:06:41.000,0:06:43.020
and medicine intertwine,

0:06:43.020,0:06:46.040
but language, the language closest to me,

0:06:46.040,0:06:47.320
is also present in all of this.

0:06:49.050,0:06:51.790
And here, a crucial moment was organizing

0:06:51.790,0:06:53.650
the first conference,

0:06:53.650,0:06:54.250
the one

0:06:54.310,0:06:57.390
that resulted in the book

m0:06:57.390,0:06:58.470
you mentioned.

0:06:58.830,0:07:02.177
In 2018 

0:07:02.177,0:07:06.660
I co-organized this conference at the University of Warsaw.

0:07:06.660,0:07:09.270
I thought it would be a small event,

0:07:09.290,0:07:10.430
with maybe 10 people attending.

0:07:10.430,0:07:10.790
And

0:07:10.790,0:07:11.770
when

0:07:12.680,0:07:14.304
I sent the information,

0:07:14.304,0:07:15.600
it turned out

0:07:15.660,0:07:19.000
that there were researchers in various places in Poland

0:07:19.040,0:07:23.800
who had independently searched and found

0:07:23.800,0:07:26.400
traces of texts.

0:07:26.400,0:07:29.000
Whether they were familiar with Rita Charon's studies, texts, books,

0:07:29.280,0:07:31.660
knowledge about narrative medicine,

0:07:31.680,0:07:32.540
'narrative medicine,' right,

0:07:32.860,0:07:34.360
primarily in English,

0:07:34.420,0:07:35.740
as it should be in Polish,

0:07:35.740,0:07:36.940
needs to be translated, is another matter.

0:07:37.790,0:07:40.270
And they came to our conference.

0:07:40.510,0:07:42.090
And it turns out

0:07:42.110,0:07:43.950
that there weren't so few of us.

0:07:44.090,0:07:46.790
And that this is a very interesting field,

0:07:46.790,0:07:48.822
which, I have the impression,

0:07:48.822,0:07:50.536
has been primarily explored

0:07:50.536,0:07:51.590
by literary scholars.

0:07:53.070,0:07:54.530
[Mariola Wilczak:] Let's get back to

0:07:54.550,0:07:56.956
what medical humanities is

0:07:56.956,0:07:59.150
and what narrative medicine, which falls within its scope, is,

0:07:59.170,0:08:01.530
the definition of which you provided in your chapter in

0:08:01.530,0:08:02.670
the aforementioned volume.

0:08:02.670,0:08:03.670
Because there are several definitions.

0:08:03.910,0:08:04.830
Rita Charon,

0:08:05.030,0:08:06.670
the founder of narrative medicine,

0:08:06.670,0:08:10.030
described it as the clinical relative of research

0:08:10.030,0:08:12.562
on the connections between literature and medicine,

0:08:12.562,0:08:15.830
and the literary relative of relationship-centered care.

0:08:16.670,0:08:19.410
Above all, however, she made it

0:08:19.410,0:08:21.110
a concrete form of clinical practice,

0:08:21.170,0:08:23.550
a model of patient care that

0:08:23.590,0:08:25.690
emphasizes patient subjectivity and

0:08:25.710,0:08:28.296
values ​​their personal perspective on

0:08:28.296,0:08:30.350
what they experience in their illness.

0:08:30.390,0:08:33.470
Professor Małgorzata Nowaczyk,

0:08:33.470,0:08:36.820
in her article "Our Life Is a Story," beautifully wrote

0:08:36.840,0:08:39.159
that narrative medicine is a medical practice

0:08:39.159,0:08:39.659
that knows

0:08:39.720,0:08:41.780
what to do with patient stories.

0:08:41.900,0:08:44.600
Elsewhere, she expressed her belief

0:08:44.640,0:08:47.880
that it's nothing different or new

0:08:47.880,0:08:49.520
, and is perhaps a new name for things

0:08:49.720,0:08:52.220
we should have always done as doctors.

0:08:53.280,0:08:54.400
What's there to add?

0:08:55.640,0:08:58.811
How is narrative medicine currently perceived,

0:08:58.811,0:09:00.000
and can this definition

0:09:00.000,0:09:01.680
be further expanded?

0:09:02.140,0:09:05.229
[Marta Chojnacka-Kuraś:] So, indeed,

0:09:05.229,0:09:07.180
there are many attempts to explain the essence.

0:09:07.360,0:09:11.300
Professor Nowaczyk's definition is very

0:09:11.300,0:09:12.860
intuitive,

0:09:12.860,0:09:14.860
very obvious, and convenient,

0:09:14.860,0:09:18.620
because patients actually come and talk,

0:09:18.700,0:09:19.700
and they tell stories,

0:09:19.700,0:09:20.520
and a doctor,

0:09:20.520,0:09:23.847
or any healthcare worker,

0:09:23.847,0:09:25.771
who has some narrative training,

0:09:25.771,0:09:29.500
will know, will be able to do something with this story,

0:09:29.500,0:09:30.620
somehow exploit it,

0:09:30.620,0:09:33.228
extract elements from it

0:09:33.228,0:09:34.780
, and use them clinically.

0:09:35.870,0:09:36.410
So,

0:09:36.410,0:09:37.110
exactly,

0:09:37.130,0:09:38.630
because here, many questions have been raised about

0:09:38.650,0:09:41.630
what medical humanities and narrative medicine are.

0:09:42.190,0:09:44.390
It's not so simple

0:09:44.390,0:09:45.510
to arrange them,

0:09:45.550,0:09:47.310
these concepts, in relation to each other.

0:09:48.090,0:09:50.650
Here, we're actually interested in medicine,

0:09:50.710,0:09:51.550
excuse me,

0:09:51.550,0:09:53.130
medical humanities,

0:09:53.130,0:09:54.630
so it's—

0:09:54.770,0:09:56.610
I'm approaching it linguistically—

0:09:56.650,0:09:57.890
an expression

0:09:57.890,0:10:01.850
that shows us the intersection of

0:10:02.060,0:10:03.600
two vast disciplines, right,

0:10:03.600,0:10:06.100
namely the humanities and medicine,

0:10:06.280,0:10:10.460
but it emphasizes the humanities.

0:10:10.560,0:10:12.360
Humanities—what kind? Medical.

0:10:12.540,0:10:16.040
On the other hand, we can also talk

0:10:16.040,0:10:17.160
about humanistic medicine.

0:10:17.180,0:10:18.680
It's supposedly the same thing,

0:10:18.760,0:10:20.220
but different.

0:10:20.380,0:10:25.440
So, medical humanities are primarily

0:10:25.440,0:10:29.480
studies conducted by humanists,

0:10:30.030,0:10:31.790
specifically literary scholars and

0:10:31.830,0:10:33.350
anthropologists,

0:10:33.390,0:10:37.190
that concern medical topics.

0:10:37.390,0:10:41.470
And here, there are numerous works on the subject, right,

0:10:41.470,0:10:46.370
of the portrayal of disease in literature, in the specific works of specific authors.

0:10:47.010,0:10:49.430
We have many studies of this type,

0:10:49.430,0:10:51.090
whether by Professor Monika Ładoń

0:10:51.150,0:10:52.350
or Małgorzata Okupnik.

0:10:52.410,0:10:52.950
Well, two wonderful

0:10:53.010,0:10:55.290
volumes were published very close together, right, at the same time.

0:10:56.750,0:10:58.750
On the other hand, I have the impression

0:10:58.750,0:11:01.990
that narrative medicine, as

0:11:02.050,0:11:04.170
Rita Charon proposed it,

0:11:04.430,0:11:07.540
is meant to be, above all,

0:11:07.540,0:11:08.400
clinical practice,

0:11:08.460,0:11:09.840
a medical practice

0:11:09.920,0:11:12.340
that draws on narrative,

0:11:12.380,0:11:17.240
draws on the powerful humanities category

0:11:17.240,0:11:18.280
of narrative,

0:11:18.280,0:11:19.080
narrativity.

0:11:19.980,0:11:22.360
And I have the feeling

0:11:22.360,0:11:26.060
that this path of medical humanities is currently

0:11:26.060,0:11:29.040
developing rapidly in Polish research.

0:11:29.040,0:11:32.380
Humanists are taking medical topics

0:11:32.380,0:11:35.780
and developing them with their own tools,

0:11:35.940,0:11:37.320
striving, of course,

0:11:37.360,0:11:40.080
to emphasize the subjective,

0:11:40.080,0:11:42.800
individual nature of the experience of illness. 

0:11:43.400,0:11:44.320
I have the impression

0:11:44.320,0:11:47.830
that narrative medicine

0:11:47.830,0:11:50.248
as a clinical practice

0:11:50.248,0:11:51.220
has slowed down a bit,

0:11:51.220,0:11:54.040
or is still waiting for its time.

0:11:54.280,0:11:58.665
Because not everywhere are classes

0:11:58.665,0:11:59.620
in this field.

0:12:00.000,0:12:01.260
After all, doctors,

0:12:01.300,0:12:02.000
future doctors,

0:12:02.000,0:12:02.920
need to be taught this.

0:12:03.020,0:12:03.640
It's not like

0:12:03.700,0:12:07.120
everyone will pick up Rita Charon's book and read it, right,

0:12:07.560,0:12:10.280
and suddenly start acting this way.

0:12:10.720,0:12:12.100
So,

0:12:12.140,0:12:16.500
if we want to systematically teach medical students

0:12:16.500,0:12:18.140
this approach to patients,

0:12:18.160,0:12:22.880
it has to be somehow systemically institutionalized,

0:12:23.000,0:12:24.220
introduced, for example,

0:12:24.240,0:12:24.580
into

0:12:24.580,0:12:25.880
teaching,

0:12:25.880,0:12:27.180
into the curricula.

0:12:27.580,0:12:30.780
And here, I haven't observed it so closely,

0:12:30.780,0:12:31.940
but I have the impression

0:12:31.940,0:12:34.580
that it's not happening very intensively.

0:12:34.780,0:12:38.080
[Mariola Wilczak:] This trend is playing an increasingly important role worldwide

0:12:38.080,0:12:40.140
. in healthcare systems, and that's good.

0:12:40.380,0:12:43.000
And it has enormous potential,

0:12:43.000,0:12:43.740
if only because

0:12:43.800,0:12:47.620
it teaches a subjective approach to the patient

0:12:47.620,0:12:50.700
and assumes an attitude of mindfulness and respect

0:12:50.700,0:12:51.340
for their narrative,

0:12:51.460,0:12:52.460
suffering, and

0:12:52.460,0:12:53.980
personal experience.

0:12:54.100,0:12:55.320
And let's imagine

0:12:56.140,0:12:59.160
how much such an approach could benefit patients

0:12:59.160,0:13:01.140
suffering from illnesses

0:13:01.140,0:13:02.560
that "masquerade" as other conditions,

0:13:02.560,0:13:05.180
such as fibromyalgia or endometriosis,

0:13:05.220,0:13:08.200
where the diagnostic process is incredibly arduous,

0:13:08.260,0:13:10.000
sometimes lasting many years,

0:13:10.000,0:13:12.040
and where, before starting treatment, the patient

0:13:12.040,0:13:14.120
hears a lot of golden advice,

0:13:14.320,0:13:16.400
even the observation,

0:13:16.400,0:13:17.380
"You're so beautiful."

0:13:17.680,0:13:21.380
And here, narrative medicine would have a lot

0:13:21.380,0:13:24.720
to offer doctors and patients

0:13:24.720,0:13:27.486
and would significantly improve the diagnostic process,

0:13:27.486,0:13:27.986
wouldn't it?

0:13:27.986,0:13:29.040
[Marta Chojnacka-Kuraś:] Yes, indeed.

0:13:29.040,0:13:31.600
And it's not a new discovery either,

0:13:31.660,0:13:36.600
that the patient's story conceals a diagnosis.

0:13:36.800,0:13:39.160
So, listen to your patient,

0:13:39.200,0:13:41.220
because they're telling you the diagnosis.

0:13:41.340,0:13:44.180
You just have to be prepared for it.

0:13:44.180,0:13:46.680
Perhaps it's enough to simply be aware

0:13:46.680,0:13:48.120
that such an approach is possible.

0:13:48.220,0:13:51.390
But of course, doctors here will always say

0:13:51.390,0:13:53.510
there's so little time for an appointment

0:13:53.510,0:13:57.490
that everything needs to be done in those 15 minutes,

0:13:57.610,0:14:01.010
and there's still so much paperwork in the system, on the computer,

0:14:01.010,0:14:02.803
filling everything out, and so on.

0:14:03.610,0:14:05.850
But on the other hand,

0:14:05.850,0:14:09.090
we can also draw on research in medical communication,

0:14:09.090,0:14:12.070
which suggests

0:14:12.070,0:14:13.510
that if you allow a patient

0:14:13.530,0:14:15.810
to tell their story in their own words,

0:14:15.810,0:14:17.550
allow them to narrate,

0:14:17.570,0:14:18.710
they'll likely speak

0:14:18.990,0:14:20.030
for a minute and a half, maybe

0:14:20.070,0:14:20.770
two.

0:14:20.770,0:14:22.450
That's not very long,

0:14:22.570,0:14:23.010
is it?

0:14:23.010,0:14:25.810
And if that listener is equipped with certain skills,

0:14:26.710,0:14:29.570
they might be able to extract some

0:14:29.570,0:14:30.690
clinically relevant information.

0:14:30.750,0:14:33.610
But that's not currently taught here,

0:14:33.650,0:14:34.790
and yet, let's be aware

0:14:34.790,0:14:39.190
that Columbia University offers a master's program

0:14:39.190,0:14:40.870
in narrative medicine.

0:14:40.930,0:14:42.230
A master's program,

0:14:42.230,0:14:43.290
right?

0:14:43.290,0:14:43.790
Which lasts, I don't know,

0:14:43.790,0:14:45.503
a year, a few semesters.

0:14:45.820,0:14:49.680
However, we've already seen significant progress

0:14:49.680,0:14:50.620
in medical schools,

0:14:50.620,0:14:58.480
including the introduction of mandatory medical communication courses.

0:14:59.360,0:15:01.800
These classes are offered at various universities,

0:15:01.800,0:15:04.020
perhaps with different implementations,

0:15:04.200,0:15:07.080
often combined with classes

0:15:07.080,0:15:08.160
with a more psychological focus,

0:15:08.220,0:15:11.280
interpersonal communication with elements of

0:15:11.280,0:15:12.380
medical communication,

0:15:12.400,0:15:13.840
so it varies,

0:15:13.840,0:15:15.150
although it's all

0:15:15.150,0:15:16.430
in the standardization process,

0:15:16.430,0:15:18.756
so we're on the right track,

0:15:18.756,0:15:20.000
and I'm optimistic

0:15:20.000,0:15:21.940
that it will be similar at every university.

0:15:21.940,0:15:25.610
There's no obligation to teach narrative medicine.

0:15:25.890,0:15:26.930
I hope

0:15:26.930,0:15:29.710
that universities will include this subject.

0:15:29.770,0:15:30.210
I know

0:15:30.210,0:15:32.850
that in Krakow, at the Jagiellonian University Medical College, it's offered,

0:15:33.010,0:15:35.410
but it's still an optional class.


0:15:36.190,0:15:39.970
Perhaps the Faculty of Medicine at the University of Warsaw will

0:15:39.970,0:15:43.050
also include such a course,

0:15:43.050,0:15:44.090
but, yeah, extracurricularly.

0:15:44.090,0:15:45.670
And you never know

0:15:45.670,0:15:48.710
how many people will decide to choose a course

0:15:48.710,0:15:51.490
with such a strange name, right?

0:15:51.510,0:15:53.990
Looking at Narrative medicine, at first glance,

0:15:54.010,0:15:56.550
It isn't necessarily obviuos

0:15:56.550,0:15:57.750
what it actually is.

0:15:57.970,0:15:59.030
[Mariola Wilczak:] It raises a certain suspicion, yes.

0:15:59.530,0:16:01.630
[Marta Chojnacka-Kuraś:] Exactly, and sometimes distrust stems from

0:16:01.730,0:16:03.850
our misunderstanding of the term "narrative,"

0:16:03.890,0:16:06.000
right? In what sense?

0:16:06.000,0:16:10.400
So perhaps it should be called

0:16:10.400,0:16:13.160
narrative-based medicine

0:16:13.160,0:16:15.420
or medicine using the patient's narrative.

0:16:15.520,0:16:18.120
A little more should be put into this phrase

0:16:18.140,0:16:19.080
to show

0:16:19.080,0:16:21.325
the place of narrative

0:16:21.325,0:16:22.320
in this medical approach.

0:16:22.320,0:16:22.820


0:16:22.920,0:16:25.120
Well, I guess this expression has stuck.

0:16:25.120,0:16:28.480
"Narrative medicine," with the adjective "narrative,"

0:16:29.070,0:16:30.290
which we don't quite know

0:16:30.290,0:16:33.030
how to functionalize

0:16:33.030,0:16:35.570
in our understanding of this phenomenon.

0:16:35.670,0:16:36.350
But I hope

0:16:36.350,0:16:38.510
that elements will emerge.

0:16:38.510,0:16:40.130
I'm generally convinced

0:16:40.170,0:16:43.790
that if we want to avoid this idea

0:16:43.790,0:16:47.435
and somehow implement elements of narrative medicine

0:16:47.435,0:16:48.350
in medical schools,

0:16:48.880,0:16:51.440
we should do it in conjunction with

0:16:51.440,0:16:52.560
medical communication classes.

0:16:52.860,0:16:57.320
We should see narrative medicine as an approach

0:16:57.340,0:17:01.260
that can improve our communication skills.

0:17:01.300,0:17:03.360
Because in reality, it's an approach

0:17:03.360,0:17:06.339
that relies on a specific way of communicating

0:17:06.339,0:17:06.839
with the patient.

0:17:06.859,0:17:09.760
This openness, this listening.

0:17:09.960,0:17:12.280
The medical perspective,

0:17:12.280,0:17:15.390
the one presented by the doctor,

0:17:15.390,0:17:17.310
is completely different from the one

0:17:17.510,0:17:19.650
brought to the office by the patient.

0:17:20.630,0:17:22.329
The doctor comes first,

0:17:22.470,0:17:24.869
and here again, we can also recall the entire triad of illness.

0:17:24.869,0:17:25.550


0:17:25.550,0:17:26.170
'Illness,

0:17:26.369,0:17:26.869
' 'disease,'

0:17:26.890,0:17:27.349
'sickness,'

0:17:27.349,0:17:28.290
in English, of course,

0:17:28.290,0:17:30.010
doesn't translate well into Polish,

0:17:30.010,0:17:30.870
because we have illness,

0:17:30.870,0:17:32.090
disease, illness

0:17:32.130,0:17:32.510
everywhere.

0:17:32.510,0:17:33.010

0:17:33.200,0:17:36.240
But a doctor primarily sees illness

0:17:36.240,0:17:36.740
in the sense of 'disease,'

0:17:36.800,0:17:39.860
meaning some kind of disturbance in the body's functioning.

0:17:39.920,0:17:41.760
They're interested in tests,

0:17:41.760,0:17:42.640
blood results,

0:17:42.640,0:17:43.780
all the symptoms,

0:17:43.780,0:17:44.420
parameters.

0:17:44.480,0:17:45.560
This is a medical,

0:17:45.560,0:17:50.380
structured 'evidence-based medicine,'

0:17:50.720,0:17:51.940
or ABM.

0:17:52.400,0:17:58.060
However, the patient comes with their perspective,

0:17:58.380,0:17:59.080
the patient's.

0:17:59.080,0:18:01.420
It's a perspective

0:18:01.420,0:18:04.880
that brings this illness understood as 'illness,'

0:18:05.220,0:18:09.220
meaning my not-so-well-being,

0:18:09.220,0:18:10.640
some kind of discomfort.

0:18:10.660,0:18:11.600
[MW:] Sometimes suffering, right?

0:18:11.680,0:18:12.820
[M Ch-K:] Sometimes suffering,

0:18:12.840,0:18:13.880
very serious, of course.

0:18:15.069,0:18:16.350
I don't know

0:18:16.350,0:18:17.430
what the cause is,

0:18:17.430,0:18:17.790
I don't know

0:18:17.790,0:18:18.890
what my parameters are,

0:18:18.930,0:18:19.950
but I know

0:18:19.950,0:18:21.090
it bothers me,

0:18:21.170,0:18:22.730
that it prevents me from working,

0:18:22.830,0:18:24.750
that I can't sleep,

0:18:24.750,0:18:29.430
that I miss meetings with friends or work.

0:18:30.330,0:18:31.150
I'm afraid of it,

0:18:31.250,0:18:31.610
I don't know

0:18:31.610,0:18:32.230
what it's about,

0:18:32.330,0:18:32.650
I don't know

0:18:32.650,0:18:34.050
how it will affect my work.

0:18:34.050,0:18:35.810
So, I'm bringing it in as a patient.

0:18:36.490,0:18:36.990
Oh,

0:18:37.030,0:18:38.710
and also a very colloquial perspective.

0:18:38.870,0:18:40.770
I mean, I read something,

0:18:40.790,0:18:42.030
my neighbor told me

0:18:42.030,0:18:44.490
that this back pain could be some kind of cancer or something,

0:18:44.850,0:18:46.710
so I'm already terrified.

0:18:46.710,0:18:48.710
I have these patchworks of information,

0:18:48.710,0:18:49.810
I guess the rest,

0:18:49.870,0:18:51.550
I have some colloquial idea,

0:18:51.670,0:18:55.570
and I come in full of fear and anxiety.

0:18:55.610,0:18:58.160
And actually, we have

0:18:58.160,0:19:00.190
two completely opposing perspectives.

0:19:00.490,0:19:03.238
And now, in this new

0:19:03.238,0:19:05.650
communication education, it's recommended

0:19:05.710,0:19:08.050
to graciously combine these two.

0:19:08.510,0:19:10.670
And here again,

0:19:11.050,0:19:12.510
narrative medicine comes to the fore,

0:19:12.550,0:19:13.050
right?

0:19:13.270,0:19:14.930
So, I generally feel

0:19:14.930,0:19:18.250
that these communication education standards,

0:19:18.250,0:19:21.210
in many respects, have places

0:19:21.270,0:19:25.010
where we can invite this narrative approach.

0:19:25.870,0:19:27.310
And, well,

0:19:27.350,0:19:29.350
if we want to understand the patient's perspective,

0:19:29.370,0:19:31.530
well, I guess we look at the test results and so on,

0:19:31.590,0:19:32.730
we have some picture, right,

0:19:32.730,0:19:33.850
a medical one,

0:19:33.890,0:19:35.730
but it's not the whole picture,

0:19:35.730,0:19:36.570
it's half the picture,

0:19:36.570,0:19:37.130
if not less.

0:19:37.590,0:19:40.530
And I have to extract the rest of the information.

0:19:40.860,0:19:43.240
I want to extract it from the patient,

0:19:43.260,0:19:44.720
so that's why I'm asking here.

0:19:44.960,0:19:45.980
I'm asking, or asking,

0:19:46.060,0:19:47.200
inviting you to a conversation,

0:19:47.240,0:19:48.280
please tell me

0:19:48.300,0:19:50.160
how you function on a daily basis.

0:19:50.520,0:19:52.540
This is also for the sake of questions.

0:19:52.660,0:19:54.540
Let these be open-ended questions,

0:19:54.540,0:19:55.520
not closed ones.

0:19:55.640,0:19:57.100
Do you have pain in the mornings, right?

0:19:57.440,0:19:58.740
Do you have anything?

0:19:59.280,0:20:01.040
Well, the answer could be yes or no.

0:20:01.340,0:20:03.820
Or maybe we should ask differently.

0:20:03.820,0:20:04.320
What do you

0:20:05.100,0:20:06.260
even think about

0:20:06.300,0:20:06.920
what's happening?

0:20:06.940,0:20:08.520
What do you already know about this,

0:20:08.560,0:20:10.400
if the doctor has any suspicions?

0:20:10.480,0:20:12.740
And here, again, a great chapter opens up on

0:20:12.740,0:20:15.020
how to conduct such a consultation,

0:20:15.040,0:20:18.160
extracting as many elements

0:20:18.160,0:20:18.760
of the patient's perspective,

0:20:18.960,0:20:20.300
their story,

0:20:20.300,0:20:20.860
history,

0:20:20.860,0:20:23.540
narrative as possible.

0:20:23.930,0:20:26.370
And weave this nicely with the data

0:20:26.390,0:20:27.910
we have from tests,

0:20:27.910,0:20:28.510
results,

0:20:28.510,0:20:29.610
blood counts, and so on.

0:20:29.690,0:20:32.521
And only from this will a relatively complete picture

0:20:32.521,0:20:33.770
emerge ,

0:20:33.770,0:20:36.137
allowing us to design

0:20:36.137,0:20:37.590
a further therapeutic path.

0:20:37.630,0:20:38.190
One

0:20:38.190,0:20:40.290
that is consistent with the

0:20:40.350,0:20:44.570
expectations and needs of the sick person

0:20:44.570,0:20:45.830
who comes to us.

0:20:46.350,0:20:47.370
How do you learn this?

0:20:47.710,0:20:50.450
How do you develop this narrative competence?

0:20:50.530,0:20:53.570
So, this is where literature comes in,

0:20:53.590,0:20:58.470
as a source of excellent texts for work

0:20:58.470,0:20:59.510
and for honing and

0:20:59.590,0:21:01.490
perfecting certain skills.

0:21:02.070,0:21:04.210
Rita Charon assumes

0:21:04.370,0:21:06.470
that we need—

0:21:06.590,0:21:07.630
we as doctors—

0:21:07.630,0:21:08.130
I mean, excuse me,

0:21:08.150,0:21:10.670
I'm stepping into the shoes of a doctor—

0:21:10.730,0:21:12.950
that if I were to talk to a patient,

0:21:12.950,0:21:15.630
I need to possess the ability to be mindful

0:21:16.080,0:21:20.000
and possess a certain narrative competence,

0:21:20.000,0:21:22.000
that is, attentiveness to the narrative,

0:21:22.000,0:21:22.940
openness,

0:21:22.940,0:21:27.820
the ability to extract essential elements from the story.

0:21:28.760,0:21:31.880
And that such a skill can be trained

0:21:32.460,0:21:35.140
precisely on the basis of literary texts,

0:21:35.160,0:21:38.040
on the basis of other narratives.

0:21:38.720,0:21:44.860
And here, we look both at the content of

0:21:45.040,0:21:46.800
a given text,

0:21:46.860,0:21:47.560
but,

0:21:47.720,0:21:49.060
importantly for Charon,

0:21:49.300,0:21:50.840
also at the form.

0:21:51.220,0:21:54.000
And this is also incredibly important to me,

0:21:54.120,0:21:56.660
because sometimes when we read books,

0:21:57.120,0:21:58.740
we rush for the content.

0:21:59.100,0:21:59.660
Descriptions,

0:21:59.700,0:22:00.640
uninteresting ones,

0:22:00.640,0:22:01.140
dialogues,

0:22:01.280,0:22:01.780
then

0:22:01.880,0:22:03.060
some key verbs

0:22:03.080,0:22:04.460
that move the plot forward.

0:22:05.080,0:22:06.660
And here, Charon says,

0:22:06.840,0:22:09.940
we can't just look at the content,

0:22:09.960,0:22:11.700
because if we were a doctor

0:22:11.700,0:22:13.280
who followed the content only,

0:22:13.320,0:22:14.100
we would

0:22:14.510,0:22:16.770
lose many of the story's qualities,

0:22:16.790,0:22:18.490
which could offer valuable insights.

0:22:18.490,0:22:21.990
So, in these narrative sessions,

0:22:21.990,0:22:23.530
a lot of attention is focused on the form.

0:22:23.570,0:22:26.010
And here, my beloved language comes in again.

0:22:26.010,0:22:28.590
For example, all metaphors,

0:22:28.630,0:22:30.350
word choice.

0:22:31.120,0:22:32.240
Grammatical forms,

0:22:32.240,0:22:33.600
tense forms, for example,

0:22:33.740,0:22:34.840
whether it's in the past,

0:22:34.860,0:22:35.620
present, or

0:22:35.620,0:22:36.160
future tense.

0:22:36.420,0:22:39.073
Focusing on form

0:22:39.073,0:22:41.720
teaches us this mindfulness, and later,

0:22:41.740,0:22:44.460
when we're in the medical office

0:22:44.460,0:22:47.720
and we hear a specifically formulated statement

0:22:47.720,0:22:50.060
from our patient and we possess this ability

0:22:50.060,0:22:51.820
to focus on form,

0:22:51.840,0:22:54.180
we'll be able to hear

0:22:54.180,0:22:56.620
whether they're talking about their own fears,

0:22:56.680,0:22:58.650
or whether they're, for example, the fears of their wife,

0:22:58.650,0:23:01.530
who said something before the visit.

0:23:01.530,0:23:01.850


0:23:01.850,0:23:02.410
truth, and so on.

0:23:02.670,0:23:03.950
Whose voice is this?

0:23:04.250,0:23:06.730
Whose voice is speaking through the patient?

0:23:06.790,0:23:07.810
Their own,

0:23:07.810,0:23:10.990
or perhaps someone else's imposed on them from the outside?

0:23:11.320,0:23:13.260
[MW:] It's certainly worth emphasizing

0:23:13.380,0:23:17.400
that narrative medicine isn't

0:23:17.400,0:23:18.940
solely patient-centered, isn't it?

0:23:18.960,0:23:21.860
Because in a webinar available on the Medycyna Praktyczna website

0:23:21.860,0:23:24.520
with doctors and the founders of the Narrative Medicine Laboratory,

0:23:24.520,0:23:28.440
doctor Hubert Syzdek emphasized

0:23:28.460,0:23:31.860
that it also takes into account the needs of all those

0:23:31.860,0:23:33.700
involved in healthcare,

0:23:33.700,0:23:34.460
including physicians

0:23:34.700,0:23:37.740
who are forced to face daily

0:23:37.740,0:23:40.080
uncertainty regarding diagnoses

0:23:40.080,0:23:42.680
and future prognoses.

0:23:42.800,0:23:46.760
As Professor Małgorzata Nowaczyk,

0:23:46.760,0:23:48.040
specializing in prenatal medicine,

0:23:48.850,0:23:50.970
confessed during the webinar

0:23:51.250,0:23:54.170
, narrative medicine helped her greatly

0:23:54.170,0:23:55.410
in coping with this uncertainty,

0:23:55.530,0:23:58.850
and the classes with Rita Charon were a revelation for her

0:23:58.850,0:24:00.990
and she felt understood as a doctor.

0:24:00.990,0:24:03.770
What does this look like

0:24:03.770,0:24:04.870
in everyday medical practice?

0:24:04.890,0:24:07.370
Let's create a theoretical situation

0:24:07.370,0:24:07.930
in the office,

0:24:07.970,0:24:10.650
where a patient, for example, a cancer specialist, comes in

0:24:10.710,0:24:13.050
and begins to tell their story,

0:24:13.050,0:24:15.498
bringing

0:24:15.498,0:24:16.470
with them a huge set of tests.

0:24:16.880,0:24:17.440
A person

0:24:17.440,0:24:20.200
with a long history of illness,

0:24:20.280,0:24:22.360
the doctor has to go through this,

0:24:22.360,0:24:27.080
sees how complicated the case is, and, of course,

0:24:27.080,0:24:29.440
it's a burden on them as well.

0:24:29.540,0:24:30.320
Imagine

0:24:30.360,0:24:31.780
that a moment later, the family comes in

0:24:31.780,0:24:33.540
and tells a different story.

0:24:33.880,0:24:35.040
It turns out

0:24:35.080,0:24:37.220
the patient is distorting the facts,

0:24:37.240,0:24:38.460
remembers little, and

0:24:38.460,0:24:39.920
needs to fill in the blanks,

0:24:39.940,0:24:41.800
listen to more voices.

0:24:42.260,0:24:43.020
I don't know

0:24:43.600,0:24:45.720
how to navigate all this.

0:24:45.820,0:24:47.740
What's a poor doctor to do,

0:24:47.740,0:24:50.880
who sees so many cases like this every day,

0:24:50.880,0:24:52.760
and, as you mentioned,

0:24:52.860,0:24:54.100
doesn't have the time

0:24:54.200,0:24:57.200
to listen to the patient at length.

0:24:57.220,0:24:59.268
How can he cope with all this

0:24:59.268,0:25:00.800
thanks to narrative medicine?

0:25:00.980,0:25:03.420
[M Ch-K:] We'd have to ask the doctors about it

0:25:03.420,0:25:04.000
first.

0:25:04.000,0:25:04.680
[MW:] I hope

0:25:04.700,0:25:05.480
we will.

0:25:05.480,0:25:06.240
[M Ch-K:] We'll manage.

0:25:06.340,0:25:07.880
So let me say right away

0:25:07.880,0:25:10.900
that I'm absolutely not a doctor

0:25:10.900,0:25:11.740
and have never had any contact,

0:25:11.740,0:25:15.560
I mean, with patients in this capacity,

0:25:15.560,0:25:18.820
so what I'm about to share is only a theoretical construct

0:25:18.820,0:25:21.920
based on what I've read

0:25:21.920,0:25:22.880
or heard.

0:25:24.160,0:25:27.520
Indeed, this only goes to show how

0:25:27.520,0:25:30.700
complex a doctor's work is,

0:25:30.700,0:25:32.980
especially with diseases,

0:25:32.980,0:25:33.480
right,

0:25:33.480,0:25:34.820
so specifically difficult

0:25:35.100,0:25:37.480
, like oncological ones.

0:25:37.600,0:25:41.420
And narrative medicine

0:25:41.420,0:25:42.740
also provides a space for doctors

0:25:42.820,0:25:46.680
to see themselves as people,

0:25:47.080,0:25:48.280
not as machines

0:25:48.280,0:25:52.120
simply tasked with completing tasks,

0:25:52.120,0:25:55.320
but as people with their weaknesses,

0:25:55.340,0:25:56.460
bad days,

0:25:56.460,0:25:58.300
and all the burden and

0:25:58.300,0:25:59.900
emotional baggage.

0:26:00.720,0:26:03.320
I'm also thinking here of

0:26:03.340,0:26:05.560
the parallel charts,

0:26:05.560,0:26:06.840
the parallel disease charts, as

0:26:06.840,0:26:08.760
used by Rita Charon.

0:26:09.550,0:26:11.630
This is precisely one component of

0:26:11.630,0:26:12.610
this narrative practice:

0:26:12.650,0:26:15.510
the doctor keeps,

0:26:15.510,0:26:16.730
in addition to the disease chart,

0:26:16.850,0:26:17.830
a sort of—

0:26:17.850,0:26:18.290
I don't know—

0:26:18.290,0:26:21.850
notes about the encounter with the patient.

0:26:21.850,0:26:27.990
And here, perhaps, I could also have a moment of focus

0:26:27.990,0:26:29.630
on my own feelings,

0:26:29.630,0:26:33.690
what happened within me during this meeting,

0:26:33.690,0:26:36.510
or after contact with this patient,

0:26:36.510,0:26:37.430
what I feel.

0:26:38.060,0:26:38.440
Do I feel,

0:26:38.440,0:26:38.800
I don't know,

0:26:38.800,0:26:39.300
anger,

0:26:39.300,0:26:39.760
resentment,

0:26:39.760,0:26:40.420
helplessness?

0:26:40.500,0:26:42.580
Or am I just happy

0:26:42.580,0:26:43.960
because something is better?

0:26:44.720,0:26:46.540
Here again, we could say, on the other hand,

0:26:46.760,0:26:48.800
when should a doctor do this in Poland,

0:26:48.900,0:26:50.880
in the Polish healthcare system,

0:26:50.920,0:26:53.340
when should I sit down and make these charts myself?

0:26:53.340,0:26:55.900
At home, between shifts?

0:26:56.160,0:26:59.600
So, it's like these systemic limitations

0:26:59.600,0:27:01.200
will always be an argument against it.

0:27:01.320,0:27:01.880
[MW:] Exactly,

0:27:01.940,0:27:04.260
and the funding for healthcare,

0:27:04.260,0:27:05.900
the lack of space for all of this,

0:27:06.020,0:27:07.740
it's also very complex.

0:27:07.740,0:27:08.100
[M Ch-K:] Yes,

0:27:08.100,0:27:09.120
yes, and this situation

0:27:09.120,0:27:10.240
we've built here,

0:27:10.240,0:27:10.920
this construct

0:27:10.920,0:27:13.860
of first talking to the patient,

0:27:14.030,0:27:15.090
then their family comes in,

0:27:15.530,0:27:16.690
and it becomes such a polyphony,

0:27:16.690,0:27:17.610
such a thicket.

0:27:18.410,0:27:19.850
So again, it seems

0:27:19.890,0:27:22.710
that theoretically, if we were narratively competent

0:27:23.510,0:27:26.090
we could

0:27:26.090,0:27:27.910
extract something coherent from this thicket,

0:27:28.630,0:27:30.490
ike a coherent picture of the disease

0:27:30.510,0:27:31.530
that emerges,

0:27:31.530,0:27:32.410
or

0:27:32.450,0:27:35.510
we could simply notice these differences, and then

0:27:35.510,0:27:37.530
we'd have something to work on during the next visit.

0:27:37.830,0:27:39.490
These are all very difficult things,

0:27:39.610,0:27:42.250
including communication-wise.

0:27:42.290,0:27:45.770
I also constantly keep

0:27:45.770,0:27:46.710
this communication aspect in mind.

0:27:47.720,0:27:49.480
I only talk to the patient,

0:27:49.480,0:27:50.520
Whether with a child,

0:27:50.520,0:27:51.460
their parent,

0:27:51.460,0:27:54.460
or an older patient and his daughter,

0:27:54.480,0:27:56.900
who brings her perspective,

0:27:56.900,0:27:58.920
her own context

0:27:58.940,0:28:01.760
—these are very difficult situations.

0:28:02.320,0:28:04.160
And I deeply believe

0:28:04.300,0:28:06.460
that this kind of transition,

0:28:06.480,0:28:09.120
even training in narrative medicine,

0:28:09.120,0:28:11.980
or this kind of immersion in this idea,

0:28:12.750,0:28:14.510
will also benefit doctors,

0:28:14.630,0:28:17.830
although it's difficult for me to give any

0:28:17.830,0:28:21.010
very specific examples right now .

0:28:21.150,0:28:22.122
I think it's simply

0:28:22.122,0:28:24.670
the art of living.

0:28:24.670,0:28:27.582
I also wouldn't want

0:28:27.582,0:28:28.130
it to sound like

0:28:28.150,0:28:30.210
narrative medicine is some kind of tool,

0:28:30.210,0:28:31.970
a communication tool,

0:28:31.990,0:28:32.870
some kind of gimmick,

0:28:32.870,0:28:34.250
some kind of trick.

0:28:34.710,0:28:35.690
I also know

0:28:35.750,0:28:38.450
that many authors caution against

0:28:38.570,0:28:41.270
treating it that way.

0:28:42.250,0:28:43.990
So, indeed, if someone seriously engages with it,

0:28:44.070,0:28:44.890
reads deeply,

0:28:45.090,0:28:47.330
and works through it internally,

0:28:47.350,0:28:50.790
it can make a difference in their professional life and

0:28:50.870,0:28:52.510
their approach.

0:28:52.990,0:28:53.870
Honestly,

0:28:54.230,0:28:55.070
I'm not a doctor,

0:28:55.070,0:28:57.570
but I am an educator.

0:28:57.570,0:28:58.510
I'm a mother and

0:28:58.510,0:28:59.250
a wife every day.

0:28:59.290,0:29:02.230
I communicate with various people,

0:29:02.230,0:29:04.242
and generally, I have the impression

0:29:04.242,0:29:05.550
that the more I read about narrative medicine, the more

0:29:05.590,0:29:08.750
I read and think about communication,

0:29:09.310,0:29:12.830
the better I communicate in various situations.

0:29:13.590,0:29:18.150
So that's what's fascinating about linguistics in general,

0:29:18.150,0:29:20.670
in any discipline,

0:29:20.670,0:29:23.510
in simply constantly improving,

0:29:23.510,0:29:26.430
learning something anew, and trying

0:29:26.430,0:29:27.790
to implement it somehow.

0:29:28.280,0:29:31.160
This intersection of linguistics and medicine,

0:29:31.380,0:29:33.920
which is also evident in narrative medicine,

0:29:34.040,0:29:36.120
but also in communication topics,

0:29:36.120,0:29:36.960
is a topic

0:29:37.020,0:29:40.760
that should interest students, and it's a shame

0:29:40.760,0:29:43.400
it's not included in the teaching program.

0:29:43.540,0:29:44.560
And it happened

0:29:44.620,0:29:48.520
that I had the opportunity to lead a seminar at my faculty,

0:29:48.520,0:29:51.980
and I proposed a course entitled

0:29:51.980,0:29:52.840
"Language and Medicine".

0:29:52.980,0:29:55.360
I deliberately gave it such a broad title,

0:29:55.380,0:29:56.100
"Language and Medicine,"

0:29:56.200,0:29:58.940
with the intention of

0:29:58.940,0:30:02.020
including elements of narrative medicine.

0:30:02.040,0:30:03.380
Of course, the audience and

0:30:03.380,0:30:06.280
participants of these classes are Polish language students,

0:30:06.380,0:30:08.680
master's students of Polish studies.

0:30:09.580,0:30:11.880
I've already conducted these classes twice.

0:30:12.300,0:30:14.740
This academic year,

0:30:14.740,0:30:15.140
in the summer,

0:30:15.140,0:30:17.320
I'll be hosting my third session.

0:30:17.360,0:30:20.420
So, I had the pleasure of

0:30:20.420,0:30:25.340
conducting this narrative medicine session with students for the first time.

0:30:25.820,0:30:27.220
Within these topics,

0:30:27.220,0:30:30.180
this seminar, we discuss various topics,

0:30:30.220,0:30:32.060
including the nomenclature of diseases,

0:30:32.140,0:30:33.240
the nomenclature of medications, and

0:30:33.540,0:30:35.220
communication issues.

0:30:35.320,0:30:38.620
What lexical resources does Polish offer us

0:30:38.620,0:30:40.620
for talking about the experience

0:30:40.660,0:30:41.920
of illness

0:30:41.920,0:30:43.540
or health disorders?

0:30:43.660,0:30:46.860
And we have elements of medical humanities there.

0:30:47.580,0:30:50.500
I give this introduction to the humanities students,

0:30:50.500,0:30:53.020
so they seem to understand it and

0:30:53.020,0:30:53.520
absorb it.

0:30:53.850,0:30:57.210
The dynamics of this seminar

0:30:57.210,0:30:59.630
are truly amazing to me.

0:30:59.630,0:31:01.990
I simply look forward to each new class.

0:31:02.070,0:31:03.910
Some of them open up so beautifully,

0:31:03.990,0:31:05.910
bringing so much of their perspective.

0:31:05.950,0:31:06.330
They see

0:31:06.330,0:31:07.450
that this is important,

0:31:07.610,0:31:11.090
that the next time I go to the doctor,

0:31:11.110,0:31:12.130
I'll actually pay attention

0:31:12.490,0:31:14.030
to these and such things, right?

0:31:14.430,0:31:17.690
And I usually

0:31:17.690,0:31:18.070
do this narrative session at the end,

0:31:18.070,0:31:19.050
because I also want

0:31:19.090,0:31:21.950
the group to get to know each other a little,

0:31:22.290,0:31:22.950
just with themselves.

0:31:23.690,0:31:25.530
Because, I don't know,

0:31:25.550,0:31:29.350
it's not often that we do these kinds of sessions in classes,

0:31:29.350,0:31:31.390
which require such honesty,

0:31:31.390,0:31:32.330
openness,

0:31:32.330,0:31:34.850
and self-disclosure,

0:31:34.950,0:31:37.410
so it's at the end.

0:31:37.610,0:31:40.830
And it turns out very interesting.

0:31:41.120,0:31:44.040
They also work very well, and I think

0:31:44.100,0:31:46.260
medical students,

0:31:46.260,0:31:48.040
or practicing doctors,

0:31:48.060,0:31:51.040
would also open up during such sessions.

0:31:51.140,0:31:52.780
And it's really interesting

0:31:52.780,0:31:55.740
that we're working here with literary texts

0:31:55.740,0:32:00.440
that, on the surface, have no connection

0:32:00.440,0:32:01.320
to medical practice.

0:32:02.700,0:32:03.840
It's even said

0:32:03.860,0:32:04.880
that these texts,

0:32:04.880,0:32:05.700
Rita Charon emphasizes,

0:32:05.740,0:32:06.460
that the texts

0:32:06.460,0:32:07.160
we choose

0:32:07.300,0:32:11.120
shouldn't address medical topics,

0:32:11.120,0:32:12.940
should be completely detached.

0:32:13.290,0:32:15.210
But I think

0:32:15.290,0:32:19.690
that if we were to start with this

0:32:19.690,0:32:20.450
type of course,

0:32:20.510,0:32:22.110
it might be good

0:32:22.150,0:32:24.670
if these texts at least

0:32:24.670,0:32:27.270
touched on medical topics thematically.

0:32:27.390,0:32:31.050
Besides, it's probably not without reason that

0:32:31.050,0:32:34.430
Alice Munro's short story "The Hanging Bridge" is also included in Rita Charon and her co-authors' textbook.

0:32:34.430,0:32:36.870
This text is often chosen for

0:32:36.870,0:32:40.470
narrative medicine

0:32:40.470,0:32:41.910
training ,

0:32:42.570,0:32:44.330
even though it deals precisely with the experience of illness.

0:32:44.490,0:32:45.950
So I think

0:32:45.950,0:32:47.870
it's worth starting with such texts,

0:32:47.890,0:32:50.950
and then you can actually expand to

0:32:50.950,0:32:51.970
poetic texts, for example,

0:32:51.970,0:32:55.550
which deal with completely different experiences, and there

0:32:55.550,0:33:00.810
practice those skills of analyzing texts

0:33:00.810,0:33:02.370
into individual elements.

0:33:03.139,0:33:05.440
But let's also say this,

0:33:05.620,0:33:06.780
because I don't want

0:33:06.820,0:33:08.040
the impression to remain

0:33:08.060,0:33:09.760
that there's some grand,

0:33:09.760,0:33:11.800
wonderful concept of narrative medicine,

0:33:11.800,0:33:14.140
and our doctors are generally very bad.

0:33:15.680,0:33:18.520
So I have the impression

0:33:18.560,0:33:19.060
that many

0:33:19.240,0:33:23.160
people are different everywhere in every professional group.

0:33:23.620,0:33:25.720
And there are certainly

0:33:25.720,0:33:27.660
many doctors

0:33:27.660,0:33:29.240
who are just like that,

0:33:29.420,0:33:31.380
as if Rita Charon had dreamed them up.

0:33:31.660,0:33:33.480
And they can talk like that.

0:33:33.580,0:33:34.740
No matter what happens,

0:33:34.760,0:33:35.900
they will be just like that.

0:33:36.380,0:33:37.500
They are empathetic,

0:33:37.500,0:33:38.220
open,

0:33:38.220,0:33:41.620
love to let the patient tell them in their own words

0:33:41.620,0:33:44.505
what's going on,

0:33:44.505,0:33:45.300
and that's how they can work.

0:33:45.320,0:33:46.580
There will definitely be people like that.

0:33:46.700,0:33:48.000
[MW:] Yes, sometimes they have a pebble in their shoe,

0:33:48.060,0:33:51.060
but that rarely happens to them.

0:33:52.460,0:33:53.740
[M Ch-K:] That's the thing:

0:33:53.740,0:33:54.500
you either have it

0:33:54.520,0:33:55.600
or you don't,

0:33:55.680,0:33:57.040
but

0:33:57.120,0:33:59.620
those who already have it do great and seem to cope,

0:33:59.620,0:34:00.280
move on,

0:34:00.400,0:34:00.940
but those

0:34:00.980,0:34:01.640
who don't have it

0:34:01.700,0:34:03.600
can learn it.

0:34:03.720,0:34:06.194
And this way of thinking about developing communication skills

0:34:06.194,0:34:08.520
is very important

0:34:08.600,0:34:10.100
to talk about.

0:34:10.179,0:34:10.679
And I think

0:34:10.719,0:34:12.320
it's similar with narrative medicine.

0:34:12.500,0:34:15.060
These elements can be learned.

0:34:15.080,0:34:16.500
If I don't have them

0:34:16.600,0:34:18.659
, I can

0:34:18.840,0:34:21.699
develop certain skills and try

0:34:21.699,0:34:23.340
to implement them a little bit,

0:34:23.340,0:34:24.900
right, in my daily work.

0:34:25.600,0:34:26.380
So, yes,

0:34:26.460,0:34:28.860
there are truly fantastic doctors.

0:34:28.860,0:34:31.440
I know this from my own experiences,

0:34:31.440,0:34:32.940
because each of us goes to the doctor.

0:34:33.860,0:34:35.100
Some have better communication skills,

0:34:35.120,0:34:36.199
others have worse,

0:34:36.540,0:34:37.719
right?

0:34:38.420,0:34:40.880
But there are definitely those

0:34:40.960,0:34:44.080
who can discover it within themselves.

0:34:44.330,0:34:46.610
And others have a chance,

0:34:46.630,0:34:47.989
if they want,

0:34:47.989,0:34:50.830
to improve

0:34:50.830,0:34:51.389
in this respect, at least a little.

0:34:52.969,0:34:56.690
[MW:] To a certain extent, it disrupts the hierarchy

0:34:56.690,0:34:57.350
in the doctor's office,

0:34:57.350,0:34:57.710
doesn't it?

0:34:57.710,0:35:00.990
Because it shortens the distance between the doctor, the patient,

0:35:00.990,0:35:01.750
and their loved ones.

0:35:01.970,0:35:03.650
And do you think

0:35:04.270,0:35:08.050
that disrupting this hierarchy is an obstacle

0:35:08.050,0:35:10.270
to adopting this new model of communication and

0:35:10.270,0:35:10.890
relationship,

0:35:10.950,0:35:12.170
an obstacle

0:35:12.170,0:35:14.470
that creates strong resistance?

0:35:15.030,0:35:16.110
[M Ch-K] Indeed,

0:35:16.110,0:35:19.870
there are various models of this hierarchy,

0:35:19.870,0:35:21.150
including communication,

0:35:21.190,0:35:23.390
more traditional ones

0:35:23.470,0:35:27.830
that place the doctor higher in the hierarchy

0:35:27.830,0:35:29.390
and the patient somewhere below,

0:35:29.920,0:35:32.300
who has to comply with the recommendations

0:35:32.320,0:35:34.480
the doctor has given.

0:35:34.860,0:35:36.060
But there are also, and

0:35:36.080,0:35:39.660
these days, it's changing towards

0:35:39.660,0:35:40.360
relationships,

0:35:40.360,0:35:42.580
more like partnerships,

0:35:42.600,0:35:47.320
in which the patient is increasingly involved.

0:35:47.320,0:35:48.380
In the therapeutic process,

0:35:48.380,0:35:49.000
not only the patient

0:35:49.020,0:35:49.960
but also their family.

0:35:50.160,0:35:52.560
So we're increasingly dealing

0:35:52.560,0:35:54.560
with a triple relationship,

0:35:54.580,0:35:56.140
where there's a doctor,

0:35:56.140,0:35:57.100
but also the entire staff,

0:35:57.100,0:35:57.800
the patient,

0:35:57.800,0:35:58.700
and their loved ones.

0:35:59.450,0:36:02.990
So, I have the impression

0:36:02.990,0:36:03.930
that these roles are truly equalizing somewhere

0:36:03.930,0:36:04.410
,

0:36:04.410,0:36:06.890
even at the level of communication training.

0:36:07.370,0:36:10.310
And in narrative medicine, we really need

0:36:10.310,0:36:14.110
to open up to the other person and to ourselves, and this

0:36:14.110,0:36:16.790
also comes across very nicely in

0:36:16.830,0:36:20.410
what Rita Charon writes about

0:36:20.410,0:36:21.110
these parallel cards. It's true

0:36:21.110,0:36:25.150
that when a doctor has to

0:36:25.150,0:36:27.770
describe the experience of this contact with a patient in her own way,

0:36:28.350,0:36:31.610
she likes to look at herself

0:36:31.610,0:36:33.250
and talk about herself in the third person.

0:36:33.470,0:36:36.150
So, somewhere, as if from a bird of gold, she observes herself

0:36:36.150,0:36:38.350
as this doctor and this patient,

0:36:38.390,0:36:40.130
because it happened to be about a certain patient,

0:36:40.270,0:36:43.990
and she sees herself as equal to that patient.

0:36:44.050,0:36:46.570
And somewhere there, she hangs higher, as an observer.

0:36:47.750,0:36:48.690
I don't know

0:36:48.690,0:36:49.930
if doctors are afraid of this.

0:36:49.990,0:36:52.610
Perhaps it's truly a

0:36:52.610,0:36:53.330
generational issue.

0:36:53.530,0:36:54.250
I think

0:36:54.290,0:36:59.530
this is also a significant phenomenon in many institutions.


0:37:00.170,0:37:02.570
So a certain generation, attached to certain

0:37:02.570,0:37:08.150
patterns of linguistic behavior, simply persists.

0:37:10.640,0:37:11.500
So I think

0:37:11.560,0:37:16.080
that doctors, through communication classes,

0:37:16.080,0:37:19.060
are also being opened up to these new communication models.

0:37:19.280,0:37:23.540
And here, narrative medicine connects with this.

0:37:23.700,0:37:26.080
Because we might also think,

0:37:26.080,0:37:28.960
precisely in this description of the evolution of communication models,

0:37:29.060,0:37:32.920
that this partnership model is ideal.

0:37:32.940,0:37:36.180
That patients so desperately want to be on equal footing with

0:37:36.180,0:37:36.880
their doctors,

0:37:36.880,0:37:37.220
right?

0:37:37.220,0:37:43.020
And they want to be so active in the therapeutic process.

0:37:43.020,0:37:44.280
And there are studies that show

0:37:44.320,0:37:46.580
that this isn't the case at all,

0:37:46.600,0:37:48.220
that it's not at all obvious

0:37:48.260,0:37:52.240
that a doctor is the specialist

0:37:52.240,0:37:53.760
I come to,

0:37:53.760,0:37:56.340
despite everything, for specific advice.

0:37:56.400,0:37:57.940
Of course, it's nice

0:37:57.940,0:38:00.850
when they give me a choice,

0:38:00.870,0:38:03.910
present possible therapeutic paths,

0:38:04.010,0:38:04.970
ask about

0:38:05.030,0:38:06.590
my family and professional situation,


0:38:07.250,0:38:08.750
whether I'm ready for therapy

0:38:08.750,0:38:09.610
that will last,

0:38:09.630,0:38:11.030
I don't know, three months, and so on.

0:38:11.490,0:38:13.050
But it's not like

0:38:13.050,0:38:17.170
all patients want to make their own decisions.

0:38:17.750,0:38:20.790
It's also quite interesting, I have the impression

0:38:20.810,0:38:23.990
that a doctor should become a doctor,

0:38:23.990,0:38:25.190
this specialist,

0:38:25.210,0:38:27.710
this source of specific knowledge.

0:38:27.750,0:38:28.330
A rock,

0:38:28.330,0:38:29.370
yes. Exactly.

0:38:30.490,0:38:33.670
A source of knowledge, of course,

0:38:33.690,0:38:35.990
and then perhaps a bit of a guide,

0:38:35.990,0:38:37.050
a companion,

0:38:37.090,0:38:38.610
but such one

0:38:38.630,0:38:40.410
I can always ask

0:38:40.410,0:38:42.010
if we're going in the right direction.

0:38:42.830,0:38:43.630
Or say,

0:38:43.690,0:38:46.110
"Something's changed in my life and I don't know,

0:38:46.130,0:38:47.710
I can't continue treatment,

0:38:47.730,0:38:49.210
right?" And then he's open to it.

0:38:49.310,0:38:50.470
So I have the impression

0:38:50.470,0:38:53.230
that these newer studies are giving us a

0:38:53.230,0:38:57.310
picture of the patient's desired relationship,

0:38:57.410,0:39:01.910
which is very consistent

0:39:01.910,0:39:02.890
with the idea of ​​narrative medicine.

0:39:03.230,0:39:09.310
In other words, it retains the role of a guide,

0:39:09.310,0:39:11.410
the doctor as a guide.

0:39:11.430,0:39:13.770
However, I also don't want to ignore the fact

0:39:13.770,0:39:17.610
that sometimes the patient becomes a guide

0:39:17.610,0:39:19.110
for the doctor.

0:39:19.150,0:39:20.310
Such situations exist.

0:39:20.550,0:39:20.950
[MW:] Aha,

0:39:20.950,0:39:21.590
that's interesting.

0:39:21.690,0:39:23.230
[M Ch-K:] So the patient

0:39:23.230,0:39:27.570
is, in a way, his own specialist

0:39:27.570,0:39:28.250
for his disease,

0:39:28.310,0:39:29.130
but not in the sense

0:39:29.130,0:39:30.170
that he read it on Google,

0:39:30.350,0:39:32.610
as they say, and is the smartest,

0:39:32.710,0:39:36.040
but he simply lives with his disease,

0:39:36.060,0:39:39.560
comes to certain conclusions,

0:39:39.560,0:39:40.600
to certain observations

0:39:40.700,0:39:43.540
that something simply has a positive effect on his

0:39:43.540,0:39:44.900
functioning with this disease,

0:39:44.940,0:39:46.780
shares it with the doctor,

0:39:46.780,0:39:48.460
but he also has to feel that

0:39:48.460,0:39:49.300
That he can do it.

0:39:49.850,0:39:50.230
[MW:] Exactly,

0:39:50.230,0:39:50.950
he's not afraid.

0:39:51.250,0:39:54.410
[M Ch-K:] Yes, even this doctor will be open to it.

0:39:54.450,0:39:56.410
I once

0:39:56.490,0:40:00.250
felt like a little guide

0:40:00.250,0:40:01.950
for the doctor too.

0:40:01.950,0:40:02.450
[MW:] That's interesting!

0:40:02.510,0:40:06.830
[M Ch-K:] Yes, when we had just experienced such an illness

0:40:06.830,0:40:10.490
with our first child, and we, parents

0:40:10.490,0:40:14.890
involved in caring for this illness,

0:40:14.890,0:40:16.030
discovered some tricks for

0:40:16.030,0:40:20.060
how to somehow put dressings on the child

0:40:20.080,0:40:21.520
so that everything would be fine.

0:40:21.780,0:40:25.360
And the doctor saw it at one of our visits

0:40:25.360,0:40:27.120
and praised us very much,

0:40:27.140,0:40:28.900
saying it was a very interesting idea.

0:40:28.940,0:40:32.580
And could she share this idea with other

0:40:32.580,0:40:33.300
parents

0:40:33.300,0:40:35.560
who are in a similar situation?

0:40:35.580,0:40:36.660
I won't go into details,

0:40:36.740,0:40:39.920
but I, as the mother of a young patient, felt

0:40:40.710,0:40:41.830
so appreciated then.

0:40:41.890,0:40:43.570
It was a small thing,

0:40:43.650,0:40:44.750
right? Actually, almost

0:40:44.750,0:40:45.610
insignificant.

0:40:45.730,0:40:48.750
But this doctor just came out from behind her desk,

0:40:48.790,0:40:50.150
came up to us,

0:40:50.190,0:40:50.790
saw us,

0:40:50.810,0:40:54.090
appreciated the effort, and thought

0:40:54.090,0:40:55.710
it was an interesting solution

0:40:55.730,0:40:58.230
that could also be useful to others.

0:40:58.430,0:41:00.950
So this is a really

0:41:00.950,0:41:02.840
complicated topic of these relationships.

0:41:02.860,0:41:04.740
We're building models here,

0:41:04.780,0:41:06.440
but each of us is different,

0:41:06.500,0:41:07.520
each doctor is different,

0:41:07.560,0:41:08.880
each day is different.

0:41:08.960,0:41:12.020
And this is also important in the narrative approach:

0:41:12.040,0:41:14.320
even that pebble in my shoe

0:41:14.360,0:41:15.640
that bothers me all morning

0:41:15.640,0:41:17.000
can influence

0:41:17.040,0:41:19.720
how I relate to others

0:41:19.720,0:41:22.100
and how my competencies will function, whether

0:41:22.220,0:41:23.260
they'll flourish

0:41:23.260,0:41:24.180
or not.

0:41:24.600,0:41:26.898
So, it's life, simply put,

0:41:26.898,0:41:30.860
so we're constantly flowing, and we can only try,

0:41:31.020,0:41:32.460
to correct our course somehow.

0:41:32.620,0:41:33.180
[MW:] Yes,

0:41:33.220,0:41:34.240
but from the example

0:41:34.240,0:41:35.440
you gave, it follows

0:41:35.460,0:41:38.220
that sometimes it's enough to simply give the patient a voice

0:41:38.220,0:41:39.180
and listen to them.

0:41:39.220,0:41:40.100
[M Ch-K:] Oh yes, that's it.

0:41:40.460,0:41:44.260
Meanwhile, we're often afraid of doctors' offices

0:41:44.260,0:41:46.000
and the experience of this hierarchy,

0:41:46.000,0:41:46.840
this superiority

0:41:46.900,0:41:50.440
that intensifies our fears, and this is well illustrated by

0:41:50.440,0:41:51.640
the words of one patient,

0:41:51.640,0:41:55.240
quoted in the aforementioned webinar

0:41:55.240,0:41:58.200
by Hubert Syzdek, a physician practicing narrative medicine.

0:41:58.260,0:41:59.100
He said:

0:41:59.100,0:41:59.880
Doctor,

0:41:59.880,0:42:00.460
how is it

0:42:00.560,0:42:02.640
that I'm not afraid to come to you?

0:42:02.980,0:42:04.620
These words give hope,

0:42:04.820,0:42:06.380
but at the same time, they demonstrate

0:42:06.420,0:42:08.440
how much remains to be done,

0:42:09.120,0:42:12.340
since a doctor's office

0:42:12.340,0:42:13.060
sometimes evokes associations with a battlefield,

0:42:13.100,0:42:14.400
sometimes with an oracle,

0:42:14.480,0:42:17.640
and even a place of torture.

0:42:17.740,0:42:19.320
And to listen to that voice.

0:42:19.320,0:42:20.800
[M Ch-K:] A thought-provoking quote.

0:42:20.840,0:42:21.340
Yes.

0:42:21.520,0:42:22.080
Really,

0:42:22.100,0:42:24.140
why am I not afraid to come to you?

0:42:24.200,0:42:24.640
Exactly,

0:42:24.640,0:42:26.420
fear of the office.

0:42:26.840,0:42:28.020
Perhaps fear of

0:42:28.060,0:42:28.800
what I'll hear,

0:42:28.840,0:42:30.580
or fear of

0:42:30.600,0:42:31.820
how I'll be treated.

0:42:31.820,0:42:32.320
Exactly.

0:42:32.480,0:42:35.980
These are different fears, and I think

0:42:36.060,0:42:38.650
that this fear of how

0:42:38.670,0:42:40.510
this doctor will behave,

0:42:40.510,0:42:42.030
how he will speak to me,

0:42:42.050,0:42:46.050
can be somehow reduced by working on yourself,

0:42:46.050,0:42:47.670
including communication,

0:42:47.750,0:42:49.950
because you can't escape the diagnosis, right?

0:42:49.950,0:42:54.330
But you can convey it to the patient, guide them in such a way

0:42:54.370,0:42:58.710
that it's a good experience despite the hardships.

0:42:59.980,0:43:00.880
[MW:] I feel like

0:43:00.880,0:43:04.800
we've only just scratched the surface of the vast fields

0:43:04.800,0:43:06.420
of narrative medicine,

0:43:06.420,0:43:07.860
or more broadly, medical humanities.

0:43:07.920,0:43:11.440
And I have two publications in front of me, and each

0:43:11.440,0:43:13.740
of them could be discussed at length and in an interesting way.

0:43:13.760,0:43:15.820
One is the volume "Teksty Drugie"

0:43:15.820,0:43:19.460
and the other is "Narrative Medicine and Communication in Borderline Situations"

0:43:19.460,0:43:22.020
edited by Aleksander Woźny.

0:43:23.470,0:43:26.070
In the episode description, we will of course provide

0:43:26.070,0:43:26.850
the publications mentioned,

0:43:26.950,0:43:28.510
but let us also remind you

0:43:28.530,0:43:32.090
that as part of the project, we are developing

0:43:32.090,0:43:33.730
An expert thematic bibliography,

0:43:33.730,0:43:36.430
including those on narrative medicine

0:43:36.430,0:43:37.795
and medical humanities,

0:43:37.795,0:43:41.570
and that you are acting as an expert in our project.

0:43:41.670,0:43:44.110
Together with our listeners, we will delve deeper

0:43:44.110,0:43:46.817
into this area

0:43:46.817,0:43:47.810
and discover together what

0:43:47.890,0:43:50.310
it can bring to our lives in a valuable way.

0:43:51.210,0:43:52.530
And we will continue.

0:43:52.530,0:43:53.110
I hope

0:43:53.130,0:43:55.710
to hear you as the host,

0:43:55.710,0:43:56.670
if you agree.

0:43:56.670,0:44:00.167
[M Ch-K:] We would love to!

0:44:00.167,0:44:01.850
[Music]

0:44:01.850,0:44:04.657
The "Engaged Polish Studies" podcast series

0:44:04.657,0:44:06.100
was produced as part of the

0:44:06.100,0:44:09.193
"Polish Studies and the Challenges of the Modern World" project.

0:44:09.193,0:44:11.211
Co-financed from the state budget

0:44:11.211,0:44:12.419
under the

0:44:12.419,0:44:15.910
Science for Society II program of the Minister of Education and Science.

0:44:15.990,0:44:17.930
The project number is given in the description [NdS-II/SP/0264/2024/01].

0:44:18.880,0:44:21.840
We invite you to listen to subsequent episodes

0:44:21.840,0:44:23.900
available on Spreaker,

0:44:24.080,0:44:25.331
Spotify, and YouTube,

0:44:25.331,0:44:28.340
as well as in the online "Polish Studies Newsletter."

0:44:28.620,0:44:30.400
See you there!

0:44:30.400,0:44:36.357
[Music]